Oct 20, 2011
jimbakker666 You know the guy: You tell him that you placed a deposit down on the the Tesla, or someone else mentions it to him in your presence. He seems to know all about the company, and his first question is 'what's the range'. You answer, but he doesn't really care. He just says, 'oh...that sucks'.
I just met him today, and I met a similar guy last week. They know of EVs, they even know about Tesla. And they dislike them from the start, with their disdain typically boiling down to the distance afforded per charge.
I don't understand the hate. When you think about it, 160 miles on one charge is actually quite far. I commute about 50 miles per day round-trip. Last weekend I drove about 50 on a day trip with my wife.
And when you think about it, the more miles you drive per day, the more affordable the car becomes. I wish I was driving 130 miles a day as the money spent on gas would nearly pay for the car each month. Whoa whoa, but I actually have to take time to plug the thing in while in the comfort of my own garage? God forbid!
Can you go on a spontaneous road trip with 160 miles? Probably not. Do people go on spontaneous road trips that often? Not anyone I've ever known. It's as if these guys are shooting the thing out of the water because it doesn't have the potential to guzzle gas and get you from coast to coast...yet, who actually does that in their own car? Would I drive a Honda Civic on a road trip, lol?
And hell, if I wanted to go on a road trip, I'd much rather take a little time to plan out the charging routine if it allows me to keep a few hundred dollars in my pocket. Come to think of it, I might be going on my first ever road trip with this car. Why? Because it ain't gonna cost me an arm and a leg, and it's gonna get me around in style. I might even ride in the Frunk and let my wife do the driving.
It's EV racism, I tell ya. No amount of discussion can change a person who just seems to have a bug up their ass about EVs.�
Oct 20, 2011
PopSmith My friend seems to be that way. Well, he might not "hate all things EV" but when I was trying to get him to at least test drive a Roadster he wouldn't. I asked him why and he just said "The range isn't good enough". That seemed to be his only argument (although I didn't push the issue very much). When I hear people complain about the range I usually say "Campground are close enough (at least around here) to road-trip in an EV."
It seems that Americans get all concerned over not being able to go 400-500 miles on a charge like they currently can in a gas or diesel-powered car. Honestly, when that is solved in the next 10-15 years (but hopefully much sooner!) I wonder what they'll complain about next!�
Oct 21, 2011
AnOutsider I haven't met one in person, just the trolls on sites like Engadget and such. To be fair, range anxiety IS a real thing. Even if the car got 4-500 miles on a charge, you can't just fuel up at a gas station like you can an ICE. I don't think I'll have the issue once I get my S, but aside from packing more batteries in a car, I think the easiest solution is a charging network and quicker charge times. Once you can fill up in a 50-100 mile radius in 10-15 minutes, it becomes a non-issue.
Until then, I think there WILL be concern from the masses. I mean, if gas stations weren't so ubiquitous, people would be leery of a car that can only go 400 miles before possibly getting stranded somewhere.�
Oct 21, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla No point trying to convince let alone arguing with petrolheads who are being dismissive for the sake of it. Of all the coworkers that I'm close to - and who drive BMWs, Corvettes, Intinitis, Porsches - not one has a commute longer than 70 miles roundtrip and not one has been known to take their pricey ICEs on trips beyond 150 miles or so - for anything further out, they either fly or rent an ICE (mostly from SF->LA or Vegas or San Diego sort of a thing). These are the same folks who did end up adapting to smartphones with no tactile keys and that need to be plugged in religiously every night :smile: There definitely are practical considerations involved for some of them though - they don't have garages to plug in at night (and have to park on the street sort of a thing) and our employer doesn't provide charging stations.�
Oct 21, 2011
richkae I've found the bulk of them in 2 categories:
1: It's my god given right to burn gasoline like my daddy did - I'm an American dammit - our way of life is to take whatever we want! ( max out my credit card to do it )
2: I'm a young punk and want a big powerful noisy sportscar. I may die tomorrow so I don't give a *sugar* about planning the day after - for me or anybody.
The foreign oil argument almost always works on the number 1s. I haven't found any way to get through to the number 2s. When an equally priced EV destroys them in a street race, they will be convinced.�
Oct 21, 2011
W.Petefish I met some of them. Then I lost them and had to wait for them to catch up. Then lost them again. Then took them for a ride in my Arctic White 2.5, they converted rather quickly to being EV lovers.�
Oct 21, 2011
WhiteKnight This is actually one of my greatest concerns. I can see this (already) becoming a political football. For some reason in America there is a large fraction of the populace that treats their politics like they treat their sports - i.e. religiously. I am on the red team or I am on the blue team and my team is great and your team sucks and we do everything right and you do everything wrong. I think this blind faith in political parties occurs in both parties.
My greatest concern is that driving an EV becomes something that the Left does and the Right scorns (just because the Left does it).
I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's like an iPhone where you don't care who makes it you just like it because it's awesome and it works.
When I was in California I saw a bumper stick on a Ford F-150 that said "one less Prius on the road" and I was kind of shocked. At a bare minimum you should hope everybody drives a Prius but you, then the demand for gas would be a lot less and the price to fill up your F-150 would be a lot less.
I live in Georgia and I was Republican but now I'm fiercely Independent. I plan to get a bumper stick or license plate that says "OPEC-FREE" because it seems to me that somebody on the Right (we are a Red State) would have a hard time arguing that American soldiers should keep dying in the Middle East because America is addicted to foreign oil. Electricity is generated by Made in America coal and natural gas. Driving an EV to me is patriotic.
Footnote: That gives me an idea for a Tesla Marketing Campaign if/when the time comes. How about a 30 second spot that says "The Model S is not just green, it's also red, white & blue."�
Oct 21, 2011
goyogi This is the reason I want the sport model of the S. So I can show off what an EV can do....okay, okay...you got me...it also makes me feel damn good blasting into space.
�
Oct 21, 2011
Doug_G Surprisingly, I've never encountered someone like that. I've certainly seen skepticism, but they politely listened.
I wouldn't overly worry about it. I've met people who are absolutely adamant that the moon landings never happened. They're complete idiots of course, but you can't convince them.�
Oct 21, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla I'm eagerly waiting for Top Gear's "unbiased review" of the Model S :wink: Maybe, the 3 'idiots' there will latch on to the 3-phase charging angle just to have something to gripe about.�
Oct 21, 2011
efusco I'm not even sure it's so much range anxiety as it is a sense of loss of freedom and convenience afforded by their gassers. Even if they can see that 90%+ of their driving is well within the range of the EV, they dislike the idea that they can't just jump in the car and take a longer road trip in the event of a family emergency, a spontaneous trip to a sporting event or concert, or just an impromptu get away with their partner.
Sure, you can say "just rent a car" for those events, but that is an inconvenience and an additional expense. Those of us who are in a more rural area can't even get to a decent airport without driving 300 miles by interstate. Renting a car to get to that airport, then leaving it there can be expensive (since you usually have to pay more to drop off at a different location than you picked up).
I'm not saying these are insurmountable problems. I think that once we adapt our thinking we'll find ways around these issues. maybe a vehicle swap with your neighbor--I take their gasser to the airport for the week and they get my Tesla for the week. Keep a small cheap used gasser as a backup vehicle. Whatever. But at the moment that takes a significant change in our usual way of thinking about our cars--our freedom, that sense that we can get in and drive across the country on a moment's notice if we so desire.
One last concern, and I doubt I'm the only one, but my wife is not very good about remembering to do things outside of the ordinary. Many/most EV buyers are motivated to make the EV work for them. They're excited about how they work and what they do. But my wife just wants to get in and drive and not have to remember every time she stops to plug it in and unplug it. Now, she's a bright lady and can absolutely adapt, but with 3 kids and a busy schedule it is highly probable that there will be days where she could/would forget, completely, to plug in when she gets home as she's rushing around. Now, doing that just once in a while with a 160 mile range EV isn't going to be a big problem, but drop back to a 75 mile range Nissan Leaf and a couple longer days of driving and that absolutely could be an issue. Esp. here in BFE where there are no public chargers at all.
Again, range anxiety, as I understand it, is more about fear of running out of range and not being able to recharge. I think that issue, in large part, is being slowly set aside. What isn't is the concerns about loss of freedom and convenience that our gassers provide us.�
Oct 21, 2011
VolkerP from Jeff Dunham's "spark of insanity" tour:
http://youtu.be/GQcSOP2AzXU at 2:35.
still, laughed my ass off.�
Oct 21, 2011
JRod0802 I just wanted to let you guys know that people like that do exist. I go on a spontaneous 200-300 mile drive about 10 times per year (sometimes it's more than 300 miles, I did 550 miles on a Saturday last summer). I just love driving. I usually just have a Saturday where I purposely plan nothing, and then drive out to Western Mass (or southern NH, or southern VT, or eastern NY, or northern CT) and drive all day, stopping to take pictures with my DSLR. Admittedly, I usually plan out the route ahead of time for about 10 minutes on Google Maps.
I totally agree. Even though I drive a gas guzzling Ford Mustang GT, I would definitely give a thumbs up to Leaf (not that I've ever seen an electric car on the road - in fact I have never seen an electric car or PHEV on the road ever, and I drive a lot... I've also never seen a charging station, although I hear there are some in Boston somewhere).
I agree, although for me it would be a sacrifice. I realize that sacrificing for one's country is patriotic, but I'm not willing to give up my drives. I gotta draw the line somewhere, and until EVs are cheaper than gas cars, and can go 550 miles on the highway at the drop of a hat without being nervous about range, even if you're driving on a 10 year old battery (which could be solved with higher KWh batteries, or improved infrastructure), I won't buy one. Sorry. I totally support EVs, and get excited when new electric cars are announced, and I would love for my car to have the driving characteristics of the Tesla Roadster (for example), but it'll probably be a while before I get one. I just love driving too much to give up going on a nice, long, relaxing drive through the hill towns of Western Mass with some nice 60's and 70's rock music playing at a medium volume in the background. Especially in late October when the leaves are changing color. Man is it beautiful around here right now.
But I'll definitely be wicked excited when an electric car that meets the criteria above finally comes out. Then I'll get to drive a car with superior driving characteristics (in my opinion), that doesn't harm the environment, without having to give up my spontaneous long drives.
And no, I can't afford to have one car for commuting and one car for long distances in the mean time.
Edit: If my financial situation changes, though, I'd love to have an EV for commuting and possibly for shorter drives, and an ICE car for the longer drives. Who knows, maybe by the time Bluestar is out, I'll be able to afford to have both.�
Oct 21, 2011
rabar10 I appreciate your honesty and am sure that this opinion sums up a large portion of the car-buying public. That being said:
- When you are comparing costs and worried about a 10 year old battery, then don't forget to factor in the cost of 10 years worth of gasoline and other service/maintenance. The up-front cost of EVs will be higher for a while yet, but total cost of ownership will reach and then surpass parity pretty soon!
- This shows again how important fast-charge infrastructure will be to the long-term widespread adoption of EVs.�
Oct 21, 2011
Lloyd Wait until they remove the subsidies from Gasoline, and we start paying $8 per gallon! That will make people think twice about the value of EV's! I predict that this will occur within the next two years.�
Oct 21, 2011
DZCPA I meet them daily as they take a picture of my Roadster as they eat my dust at EVERY stop light!�
Oct 21, 2011
AnOutsider This was part of my argument re: why I wanted a 300 mile battery even though my commute is less than 20 miles roundtrip. Sure, at some point, your mind will adjust (or as someone said, it'll be like tucking in kids), but I'd rather be able to forget a night or two and still have plenty range.�
Oct 21, 2011
ckessel This just confounds me. Does she forget to put gas in her current car? That's pretty out of the ordinary, unless she's filling up every day, in which case plugging in every day isn't any different. If she has any daily meds, does she forget those? Or forgets to plug in her cell phone? Or forgets to brush her teeth once a day?
Complaints about time to charge or range I can understand, but the idea that people will forget to plug in their car every day or two absolutely escapes my comprehension. It seems as crazy to me as saying you couldn't switch from sandals to shoes because you'd forget to tie the laces. I'm sure it's a real fear, but I don't think it's rational.�
Oct 21, 2011
Mycroft What I see happening is arriving home and thinking to yourself that you're going to need to go out later for something or other and deciding not to plug in until returning from the later trip. Then it turns out that you don't make that later trip, but you forget or don't think to go out and plug in the car. Normally, I would just keep the car plugged in all the time it's in the garage.�
Oct 21, 2011
mnx You've obviously never met my wife.
She forgets to charge her phone regularly... and has forgotten to get gas (although she was much younger back then).
- mnx
�
Oct 21, 2011
ckessel Heh
I suppose the fear stems from the penalty for forgetting. Forgetting to plug in a phone is the inconvenience of not having a phone. The penalty for the car battery running out is a bit more severe.�
Oct 21, 2011
vfx Jeff really is a car guy. He owns a batmoblie I believe.
He does the local car shows around here.
Wonder if he has ridden in a Roadster?�
Oct 21, 2011
vfx I've met plenty. Of course you are in pleasant Canada right?�
Oct 21, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Spare a thought for a mother of three :smile: It's definitely possible that many of our better halves have too much on their minds to remember to walk the dog, water the lawn, plug the car in etc. I do a nightly sweep up behind my wife (a mother of one) plugging her iPhone in among other things; will be doing so if and when she switches to an EV too.�
Oct 21, 2011
Doug_G Yes, polite Canada... on average... but there are jerks in every country of the world.�
Oct 21, 2011
goyogi My Volt reminds me via email and/or text to plug it in if it is not at 10PM. I'm sure they can easily do the same for the S. Of course if her phone dies before then because she failed to plug it in that's a different story.
Since January I've forgotten to plug my Volt in twice. I forget about 2-3 times a year to plug in my phone. But with the 300 mile pack I am planning on getting it won't matter if I don't plug in for a few days.
�
Oct 21, 2011
doug But then they learn that kind uncle had also happened to be an EV...
No, that 3-phase stuff is beyond them. They'll be complaining that it would be much better if it ran on hydrogen.�
Oct 21, 2011
Tech26 I really like that. Someone needs to make a video showing a Tesla being built in America, charged off a hydroelectric dam, and beating a Mustang in a drag race.�
Oct 21, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla +1! One of the best, 'patriotic' auto ads of late that I really liked was the one for this model year's Jeep Grand Cherokee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXAxMPugw3A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Something like this from Tesla (with some mention of foreign oil and wars fought for it) would appeal to even the most rabid pickup truck drivers.�
Oct 21, 2011
SByer I own an American car powered by American solar panels, and I don't see that I should be sending my money or my military friends and family off to some god-forsaken foreign county to protect the oil so that the terrorists can stay funded and a backwards regime can stay in power.
The average range I had in the morning when I had a gasser was less than the average range I now have every morning. With quick charge, even the drop-of-a-hat range issue goes away. And if they're travelling more than 500 miles in a day and claiming it's a road trip, they don't know jack about taking a road trip. This is an awesome country, with so many great things to stop at and see.
I can't abide the complete, total, and willful stupidity of the anti-EV bigots. I have yet to meet one that could think their way out of a paper bag.
(Edit: Better thought:
oil != freedom; oil == slavery�
Oct 21, 2011
efusco Of course not, but then she's not required to put gas in that vehicle every night. Her current vehicle gives her a solid 50-100 mile forwarning when it needs to be refilled, then she "Plans" a trip to do so. Now, you and I, and even she, realizes that that is something of an inconvenience, but still it's something that need be done only every 1-2 weeks or so. And, if she does forget one day and then gets in the next morning and sees that she forgot (b/c there's a big red light and a message on the multi-display reminding her of such) it's quite easy to drive the 2-3 miles to the nearby gas station, top up and proceed on her way for the next 2 weeks.
If she sees the warning, forgets and doesn't see that her EV didn't get charged she has no means to "top it up" before leaving.
We have 3 kids, often they're rushed home from school, change clothes, off to soccer, back home, off to scouts, back home late for bed, rushed inside to get everyone to bed and the dog out, etc...and sometimes in that shuffle it's quite possible that something as esoteric as plugging in a car could easily be forgotten.
Look, this isn't going to be a big issue. I'll have the EV, we'll all get in the habit of plugging in and finding a way to set reminders at bed time and such. But to ignore the fact that for some people who's habits and lifestyles don't conform that this can and will be a barrier to one degree or another.�
Oct 21, 2011
efusco That would be a huge help--I'd just have the text sent to MY phone since it's me who's going out to the cold garage to plug it in anyway! And yea, she has a terrible time remembering to charge her phone much of the time.�
Oct 21, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla The only scary angle to me is that the oil wars also 'fuel' the powerful military-industrial complex in this country which can lobby Washington DC into doing pretty much anything it wants. Without the need for foreign oil, there's little need for the govt investing in new military equipment, establishing military bases abroad and so on. A made-in-America EV does have the odds stacked against it unless the future holds the promise of "Lithium Wars" in places like Bolivia! But, I digress... :smile:�
Oct 21, 2011
speedy99 Interestingly, many married people think this way also. I have the wife's (boring) car for long trips, and the EV for me! Many people don't realize the solution is standing right there, staring them in the face. You give up nothing if you are a two car household by making one of those cars an EV. Better yet, get one with some real range and a back seat, and you may find you rarely use the ICE.�
Oct 21, 2011
speedy99 I am banking on the desire for a growing economy fueled by some innovative durable goods (like EV cars) being produced in the USA, and hoping that will become a major motivator. Money can not compensate/bribe politicians if they have too many unhappy constituents, and at some point the writing on the wall will be unavoidable...�
Oct 22, 2011
AnOutsider Don't sweat it, I 100% agree there's a genuine concern here. Thankfully though, the range tesla offers gives you a buffer in more ways than one. A txt message reminder would be cool, but like others have said, it'll become second nature.
Only took a couple days to get used to setting the alarm every night. If I don't remember hearing "Armed, stay." or look over and see a green light, I realized I didn't set it, but there's no panel to look at for an EV. A txt will do the trick.�
Oct 22, 2011
bonnie Ummm, maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure why this is a concern. I had not owned an EV before the Roadster. I also was REALLY bad at remembering oil changes and other normal maintenances.
But I've never *forgotten* to charge my car. I pull in the garage. I plug in. I put a box on top of the car (that's a whole other thread, don't ask). I grab my purse, my briefcase, and go in the house. It's just part of getting out of the car.
It's no more second nature than remembering to get the bag of groceries out of the trunk. It's just part of getting out of the car. Before worrying about this, I'd suggest you poll current Roadster owners and see how many found it difficult to remember.
It's more likely that you'll find owners that thought their car was charging, but the circuit tripped, and they wish they'd been notified in some way.
My two cents.�
Oct 22, 2011
bonnie I should mention that I've set the Roadster to delay charging until off-peak hours. But that's just a dash setting.�
Oct 22, 2011
Tommy No need to ask, we all know it's for that pesky cat! :smile:�
Oct 22, 2011
efusco Your box is exactly why I'm concerned... I have an engine block heater on my Prius that I pretty routinely plug in (different topic, but it dramatically helps FE). My wife is aware of this. She rarely drives my Prius, but on those times where she will be driving it I always try to remind her that it's plugged in and usually I'll do something like put the sun screen on the front seat leaning against the steering wheel, or leave a note on the seat, or some other "hint" that simply can't be ignored. But guess what--about 50% of the time she just moves the stuff out of the way and backs the car out of the garage without unplugging. Not b/c she's not bright enough, but b/c she's got her arms full of stuff, kids to get buckled in, and is typically in a hurry to go. I realize that the Tesla won't move while plugged in, but the point is that even with seemingly unignorable reminders--she manages to ignore them at times.�
Oct 22, 2011
bonnie Leave the car keys by the wall socket.
The point of my original post wasn't to say that 'even with reminders, it can still be forgotten' ... it was that it's just part of getting out of the car.
Sometimes I forget to close the charge port door when unplugging (we had a series of posts on that & if you can reach back from inside the car to close). I just think it's unlikely, based on actual experience and not supposition, that people will forget to charge. can it happen? Sure! But I don't think it's going to be a common occurrence. Give the woman some credit. She remembers the kids most of the time, I assume.�
Oct 22, 2011
WhiteKnight This is one reason why I would seriously consider inductive charging. It would be great to pull into the garage (over top of the charging mat) and not have to do anything. Model S can just charge itself up at 10 or 11 or whenever the rates are lower. Might only be 85% or 90% efficient but it's so inexpensive anyway.�
Oct 22, 2011
efusco Yea, but it's just so inefficient, unfortunately. I think it'll be quite some time before we see induction for EVs.�
Oct 22, 2011
cinergi Starting to need a "forgot to charge" thread but I wanted to point out that I've completely forgotten to plug in several times now (~4 times in the last couple of months). Thankfully never caused me an issue as my commute is short but some sort of reminder is in order.�
Oct 22, 2011
vfx
How about if the car senses the keyfob leaving and it signals you that it needs a charge. It could text you every 1/2 hour or the keyfob could vibrate or make a sound. Or the car could honk and flash lights to signal you that it's low and not plugged in. The more drained the battery it has the more noticeable the warning.
Of course this could be setup or overidden in the setup screen.�
Oct 22, 2011
vfx Some of the ones they are showing now are in the 90% range. Not to bad...�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 I think it's pretty much a non-issue with forgetting to plug in. I've forgotten maybe twice in the close to a year I've had the car. I also have a fairly short commute so it wasn't an issue. If you did have a 100 mile commute and your forgot to plug it, it'd probably only happen to you once and you'd never forget again.
People forget to fill up their gas tank and run out on the highway as well.�
Oct 22, 2011
cinergi I've seen the comparison to running out of fuel for an ICE many times -- but I don't see how it's comparable. If you run out of fuel in an ICE vehicle, it's relatively easy and quick to recover from. Not so for EV's.
There's also a difference with the opportunity to notice you're low and how quickly you can refuel/recharge. I've never run out of fuel in an ICE vehicle because I pay attention to the fuel gauge while driving. I have the opportunity to see that for the entire time I'm driving to remind me. For an E.V., I have one opportunity to remember to plug in when I exit the vehicle. Worse, because I usually DO plug in, I'll swear I am plugged in when I go to the car and shake my head in disbelief when I discover I didn't. While I can monitor SOC while driving the Roadster, I can't have an "oh crap!" moment and 1) easily find a place to charge and 2) charge in 5 minutes. With the Roadster, I need to make sure I've sufficiently charged and/or planned. If I mess that up, it's much harder to recover.
I've owned the Roadster about a year now. I plug it in every day when I get home. Yet there are still times I forget (something must distract me during the normal procedure). Most of us will have these moments (and probably still will even after a big mistake). The difference is, the cost of forgetting is much higher.
I'm jealous of your memory/routine :smile: But I think you'd be the minority.�
Oct 22, 2011
AnOutsider I'd hope not to forget often, but it'll happen. Heck, I still forget to grab my iPod out the car sometimes, knowing full well I dock it at night. Ah well, like i said, lots of range is one reason it shouldnt be a huge issue.
I also like the idea of induction, but that's likely better for parking spots and such due to the efficiency�
Oct 22, 2011
dpeilow We're getting a little off topic here.
You guys have one track minds.�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 I agree. I meant more that it's comparable in that it happens to everyone (not that it will happen more with EVs). You're right that it's tougher to get out of the hole you create if you don't watch your charge level. I also have never run out of gas in an ICE so I personally can't see how that happens to people.
It's basically just one of the things people will have to get used to if they buy an EV. Nothing to stress over I think. Plus, there are technological solutions as people have pointed out above. No reason why your Tesla can't send you a text message at maybe 9PM (when the car senses you're at home with it's GPS) and that you haven't plugged in.
Sorry. We are getting off topic I guess.�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 I went ahead and started a poll in the off topic area
Do you ever forget to plug your EV in at night (is it even a problem)?)�
Oct 22, 2011
Mycroft I have yet to meet an "I hate EV" guy. All the guys I know are the "I can't afford an EV" guy. Until I paid off my house, I would have been one of them.�
Oct 22, 2011
AnOutsider How about I hate them because I can't afford them?�
Oct 22, 2011
strider +100 I would bet that 99.9% of 2-car families could replace 1 of those cars w/ an EV. That's millions of EVs right there with no loss of "freedom".�
Oct 23, 2011
dsm363 There are some single people too with one commuter car and one 'fun' car. Of course my fun car is now my commuter car too. My poor old (new actually) Jetta TDI sits in the garage.�
Oct 23, 2011
zack All electric cars should come with electronic reminder systems to tell us that they need to be plugged in or tended to. Our cell phones should be involved. Also, there should be auxiliary systems that transmit via independent RF to boxes in our homes which chime and say "plug me in!" In my large apartment building where the car is 2 floors underground and I live on the top floor, cell services is dead down there so there must be an independent communication method that sends RF signals via the building's wiring or something.�
Oct 24, 2011
Jaff Wait a minute...I heard they filmed this in Sudbury!!! :wink::biggrin:
�
Oct 24, 2011
Doug_G Hard to emulate a vacuum... surely Sudbury doesn't suck that much. :tongue:�
Feb 3, 2013
Raffy.Roma I met many anti EV people. It's just that they don't care. There is nothing to do with them. Nobody could make them understand how important it is to drive pure electric.�
Feb 3, 2013
goaliemanshark I take two approaches:
1: If they are just being ignorant, but respectful. I tell them that I hope they enjoy their gas car, im going to enjoy not spending money on it
2: If they are being a douche, totally unreasonable, and not listening to what you're saying. Suggest to them that we should both go sit in our respective garages with our respective cars idling.
Sometimes, people need to have reality dropped on their head to realize what's going on.�
Feb 3, 2013
Raven I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. I'm sure they'd never get it which would be half the fun. I come from a very right-leaning region, awash in oil money (I'm right of center myself, but consider myself more an independent). I'm expecting to find these types as well, but I think I'll just be Tesla's unofficial salesman. One ride in this thing and they'll understand all the fuss. However, as mentioned before, there are plenty that just want to make as much smoke and noise as obnoxiously possible and Tesla doesn't fit their ideal. The jacked up truck, mud tires, glass pack exhaust types with the most obnoxious Harley possible in their garage. Those types will be a lost cause. I'm not sure what, if any, reasoning will work with them.�
Feb 3, 2013
Kaivball I bought the Tesla not because its EV but for practical reasons: car pool lane, less money to run, exceptional performance for a four door sedan, great looks for a four door.
I already have an X5 diesel for skiing and long trips. My other fun cars are a Ferrari and a 650i.
I am neither an EV lover or hater. Electricity is not an energy source but an energy transfer medium. It's a useful tool but in and by itself not an energy source. The energy to make electricity still has to come from somewhere.
I just love cars. Performance, looks and safety. Fuel mileage does not crack the top three. I will drive this car just like any of my other cars. Spirited.
If the government wants to give me money to buy it, fine, but not necessary. Anybody that spends $100k plus on a car doesn't need the subsidy/tax break
This is not some kind of a spiritual experience or life long dream. I won't hypermile or plan trips by the charging station. I won't worry if the heater consumes more energy than the heated seats or if the pre-heating consumes 5 miles. Whether Michelins give better mileage than Continentals. None of that interests me. I'll plug it in every night like my iPhone and my daily commute is less than 80 miles.
�
Feb 3, 2013
bonnie This was me before I bought my Roadster. I bought it for performance, not because it was electric. (The Beginning. - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum ) Now, I can't imagine driving anything but electric. I'm willing to put down a side bet that your Model S will slowly work its way with you
Game on?�
Feb 3, 2013
Kaivball Game on�
Feb 3, 2013
bonnie Posts discussing global warming have been moved to Global Warming Discussion .
(And yes, global warming is certainly a valid response to a 'I hate all things EV guy', but the discussion didn't fit within this thread.)�
Feb 3, 2013
cinergi Woah did this thread get merged with another one by mistake?�
Feb 3, 2013
bonnie No, but some posts were moved to another thread.�
Feb 3, 2013
cinergi I'm pretty sure it did. Check post 59 and prior ...
Edit -- hang on.. trying to wrap my head around this
Edit2: OK, I'm on crack. I could SWEAR this was a new thread and wondered how it was marked that I replied to it... saw my post from 2011 about a different topic and assumed a merge. Nope, that was just us getting off topic over a year ago on an old thread that Raffy resurrected :smile:
(speaking of off topic). Sorry for the false alarm.�
Feb 4, 2013
Vexar One of my four closest friends emailed asked me to drive it down to his parents' place for Easter. I have the 65kWh battery, and he said they are 3 hours of driving away from me. This was about two hours after I said that it would be a while before I could take a road trip, after calling him from the car itself. I'm trying to figure out if this is some sort of "misunderstood me" thing, because the guy is smart and listens. I responded saying I'd need to find a NEMA 14/50 outlet and stay long enough to recharge, provided it was in range.
He said he wouldn't buy an electric car until he could drive to his parents' place (six hours, he's in Lincoln, NE) and only stop for 10 minutes to gas up. Not sure how to read that response.
That guy is nothing compared to this "I hate Apple/Microsoft/Republicans/America" arrogant brute from outside Toronto. I baited him. He posted months ago about how stupid Obama was, how stupid Romney was, etc. in regards to electric cars. He said you can't get more than 100 miles out of town. Not knowing I was getting a Model S, I said "okay, well what if I bought a Model S and then drove out to see you in Toronto?" Well, he knows now. There's nothing worse for this guy than being wrong and having to admit it. If anyone in the forums is from Toronto and sees a plume of black smoke on the horizon, it is this guy, fuming mad.
Everyone else has responded with "sexy" "OMG" "glad you got something you like" "no way!" "congrats" and "when are you taking me for a ride?"
I think it is a mental disorder when people can't be happy for others.�
Feb 4, 2013
vfx People who make these kind of declarative statements have not been informed of all the advanages of driving electric. And undoubtedly they have never driven a Tesla.�
Feb 4, 2013
Robert.Boston This guy laid out two requirements: (1) drive a particular distance and (2) recharge in a particular time.
The first criterion isn't (on its face) unreasonable, provided he does this drive often enough. It was certainly a filter on my decision: if I couldn't drive the Model S between my city house and my summer house on a single charge, I probably wouldn't have bought it (given the complete lack of charging infrastructure between those two points).
The second criterion is unreasonable, IMO. Does he really drive for six hours, visits for 10 minutes, then drives six hours home? People who haven't owned EVs don't seem to absorb the idea of charging while you eat/sleep/play; with ICE vehicles, fueling is a distinct activity, and so they (mistakenly) think charging is the same. It would be deadly dull staring at a car charging for hours on end, but that's not what happens.�
Feb 4, 2013
ChadS I agree, VFX. I'd like to expand on this a little bit.
Plug-in cars, as a group, don't have ANY disadvantages over gas cars, because plug-ins include PHEVs. This may seem an obvious point, but constantly gets missed by detractors.
BEVs do have one disadvantage over gas cars: they take longer to refuel. Detractors harp relentlessly on this point because they want an excuse to not buy one. They don't want to buy one because they don't want one. They don't want one because they assume all sorts of disadvantages: they are slow and no fun to drive; they are terribly expensive, they are poorly built and unsafe, and when you are driving to the grocery store you unexpectedly have to stop and charge for 8 hours. When they come up and ask questions, they will not ask you if their assumptions are incorrect. They will just ask about range and recharge time because they're trying to figure out how much they'd have to put up with to own one.
Not only are the disadvantages not there, but there are many advantages they are not considering - because they are all invisible. You can't see instant throttle response, 100% torque, low COG, or low operating costs while looking at a car. As VFX notes, detractors are unwilling to compromise on anything because they don't see what's in it for them.
Many proponents unwittingly make things worse. Rather than show the advantages by letting them drive the car and then explaining other personal benefits like convenience and low costs, they lecture people on the societal benefits: less pollution, better for the economy, better for national security. Like anything else, if somebody starts lecturing you about how something is good for you, then you assume it's no fun. And these arguments rarely work anyway; few people will pay more for a lesser car to benefit everybody. If you want to those societal benefits come about, you have to sell the cars based on the personal benefits.
The best argument is to (as VFX often says) take them for a ride - better yet, let them drive so they can feel the throttle response. That will be enough to interest them; though they will still have questions about long-term costs (few people know how to calculate how much electricity will cost them) and convenience (plugging in at night seems easy to those of us that are used to it; but really is a change for gas drivers and they need time to figure out how they can really make it work. Pointing out they can still use gas - via another car in the household, or by buying a PHEV - helps. Another obvious point they often miss).
---------------------------
A parallel story that may help put it in to perspective.
Remember when Apple first introduced the iPad? Others had tried tablets, but they never sold. And the iPad was subject to much ridicule:
Most people I talked to said that you�d have to be complete idiot to buy one, because it couldn�t completely replace your desktop computer � it cost more and did less. It was a device without a market. Jobs had gone off his rocker. Some people lined up to buy them anyway; they were dismissed as fanatics to the brand.
- it cost more than a Windows laptop, but
- it had a smaller screen, and no keyboard
- it couldn�t run essential windows apps
- it didn�t have all the same opportunities for hardware expansion
The skeptics were correct that the tablet cost more and didn�t do everything the laptop did. But there were a number of things they were overlooking:
Windows computer makers are now justifiably concerned about tablets completely taking over their market (they won't disappear completely for a long time; but it could be a very short time before the market is small enough that most manufacturers can't make any money). This sales increase � from almost nothing to a near-majority in a short period of time � came about simply because people saw the tablets being used in real life by their friends, and quickly recognized the benefits once they saw it in use. It will take longer with cars simply because they are way more expensive, but it will likely happen the same way.
- Most of the first tablet buyers didn�t replace desktops; they added another device to their household. (Now some people are indeed buying tablets to replace laptops, for reasons below)
- Computer use is changing. There is a lot less data entry, and lot more more-or-less passive consumption of content.
- Apps are changing. Many apps were moving from the desktop to the web or for mobile devices; and in fact now some apps are ONLY for mobile devices because Apple made marketing and distribution easier
- Hardware expansion doesn�t happen often anymore � people tend to upgrade to a new device instead (lowering costs and the market moving from early adopters to mainstream makes that more desirable than it used to be)
- It had a number of very significant advantages that they were completely ignoring, because they were all invisible until you tried one:
- 3x battery life
- much faster boot times
- ability to hold in front of you with one hand, and use in a variety of cramped conditions where you can�t always use a laptop
- more natural (and much simpler) gesture interface
�
Feb 4, 2013
Al Sherman There is another category of haters that seem to be harder to talk to. It's probably a waste of time though I DO try. The people that think anything the least bit "green"is some crazy waste of money that whacko environmentalists are pushing/lying about because it fits their agenda. They simply wont accept that something green can also be better. Even WAY better as in the Model S. They're convinced that it's just environmentalist BS. They look for lies and hypocrisy.I get the thing about having an airplane all the time. I tell them that when an clean/alternative fueled airplane comes out that will carry as much as fast and as far as my current one; I'll surely buy it. Just as I did with the MS.�
Feb 4, 2013
josh_b Let me tell you I've driven alongside many of them on the 401, QEW and 403 before. Sigh.�
Feb 4, 2013
vfx I can't belive I said all that!
I'm giving myself a reputation point.�
Feb 4, 2013
Edgewood Dome Yes, several starting with my brother who hates the $7500 tax credit. I told him the total for the credit is estimated to be $2b from 2012 to 2019 when it phases out. On the other hand the tax credits to Oil companies is $10b Per Year! I live in the Pacific Northwest and work for a company in Indiana where my boss and everyone else are serious gear heads. Now I appreciate a nice ICE, but these folks were giving me all kinds of grief last week. The chairman even said I should be buying something that only got 10 MPG like a hummer. None of them believe Global Warming exists nor have any appreciation for Anything EV. Nice people otherwise! locals here in the northwest are pretty accepting of EV technology.�
Feb 4, 2013
Doug_G Yes, personality seems to change behind the wheel. But I think I'd prefer the predictably aggressive Toronto-area drivers to the oblivious Ottawa drivers. They seem to be getting worse and worse.
But we digress...
I've previously posted a story about meeting a serious EV skeptic at the auto show in Toronto. Randomly sat down with him at the crowded vendor lunch area (he was a vendor - Honda dealer). The conversation actually ended up being a lot of fun because he pulled up every FUD and excuse from poisonous batteries to hydrogen, and I had answers for all of them. By the end he was more receptive - not convinced, but thinking.�
Feb 4, 2013
artsci How can anyone who's educated, pays attention to the world around them, and has any regard for science be in denial about climate change? I would say education has failed them totally.�
Feb 4, 2013
scriptacus Not trying to get back on this topic, but I believe most are not denying climate change/global warming, they're denying anthropogenic causes. (Not my stance, but I can see where they're coming from)�
Feb 4, 2013
Doug_G I have no problem whatsoever with skepticism - there's a huge lack of skepticism on both sides of the global warming issue. (Not that there is a huge argument going on among scientists - the onus is now on the "anti" crowd to make their case - with facts, not spin.)
In any case, with strangers I don't even bother with the global warming argument. There are so many other important reasons for driving an EV.�
Feb 4, 2013
AustinPowers Come to Germany, we already do!
Uhmm, no. At least not here. People have simply gotten used to prices like more than 8 Dollars per gallon (1,60 Euro per litre premium unleaded at the moment). On the whole they don't drive less than when it was "cheap". (When was that?)�
Feb 4, 2013
vfx The tax credit was done by the Bush administration.�
Feb 4, 2013
thomas.rueesch IMHO...the below video tells why we on this forum want or have a tesla very well...
Simon Sinek: How great leaders inspire action | Video on TED.com
and all the details gather around the WHY.
If the WHY from TESLA gets to you...you're in...if not, then not. TESLA is (at least today in the early adaptor phase) not necessary for everyone.�
Feb 5, 2013
Al Sherman I believe we can drive a great car, that is not nearly as bad for the environment, and doesn't make people who want to kill us rich.�
Feb 5, 2013
Raffy.Roma In Italy the unleaded costs almost 1,80 euro per litre.�
Feb 5, 2013
brianman It's a mental adjustment to be sure.
Let's take another example:
Imagine every time you went to sleep you had to go to a hotel to do so. Now someone tries to sell you a bed -- to personally own. You might have a hard time grasping why you would spend money to buy such a thing.�
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