Thứ Bảy, 4 tháng 2, 2017

Extremely disappointed with the product and my experience with my P85+ part 1

  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    This is the email that I send to Tesla motors and I would like to share with all of you. My car is a P85+.


    " Dear all,


    I am extremely disappointed with the product and my experience thus far with my car. I took delivery back in May 2013 and since then I have been dealing with problems after problems with my car. In the five months of ownership of this vehicle my car has been on a service center more than 4 times. As all of you I am a very busy physician who does not have time for this. And the problems keep coming or have not been addressed and fixed. The following are the issues:


    1. SEVERE WIND WIND NOISE coming from the Panoramic roof. Looked at several times still not fixed. Two days ago a rep from Tampa service named Mike came up to Jacksonville to install rear cup holders and tested my car. He witnessed and stated severe abnormal wind noise coming from the panoramic roof that needed to be looked at and fix. I am still waiting for a phone call from Tampa SC to schedule my repair. My car was just down in October 4th to repair this and other issues and this is still present. Not only that, my car was at Dania Beach service center two times before that for this and it was not found nor fixed.


    2. NEW UNNERVING SWERVING WHEN ACCELERATING AND DECELERATING. The rear end of the car would fishtail or swerve making the handeling extremely bad and feeling unsafe . I am 100% sure this is due to suspension parts becoming loose. In a brand new 130K+ car this should not be happening and should not be accepted. Reported this issue yesterday and I am still waiting for a phone call to schedule the repair. The car has new tires well balanced and aligned. Rechecked this yesterday.


    3. Interior trim becoming lose and falling apart. This was fixed in October 4th trip to Tampa SC.


    4. Since time of delivery I reported that the hood of the car is misalign on the sides with a very noticible bigger gap on the left compare to the right side of the hood. This has been reported several times with no fix.




    I am extremely annoyed about all this problems on a 5 month old very expensive vehicle. I used to own German luxury cars before and I didn't have any problems. Even our 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland summit with panoramic roof that cost us three times less than the model S has not have any issues with the interior trim, body work alignment, Suspension becoming loose or Panoramic roof severe wind noise. This vehicle that is almost 2 years old and "just a Jeep"has been in service three times for 15 minutes each for oil changes. This is unbelievable. Key statements of low maintenance ,great handling, quality and service definitely not true and real with Tesla Motors products.


    At this point I do not feel that further products from Tesla will not be having all this issues. We will cancel the plan of purchaising the Model X for my wife and I will make sure not to recommend the vehicle to friends and collegues because I would feel very bad if they have to go through all these troubles.


    I am communicating with all of you through this email as I will share my experience with current, future and possible costumers in the media. "
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Mario Kadastik
    So you got ****** off because there were interior trim issues and a small misalignment of the hood in the past and that the new swerving issue didn't get fixed in 1 day (you mention that you told the SC yesterday). The pano not getting fixed I can understand, but to go so far overboard with planning to tout to everyone in the media about small issues that happen in a startup company seems a bit overreacting. Sure, going to SC four times is annoying and you should escalate, but your attitude is over the board.

    Hope you get your stuff fixed and recommend not getting ahead of yourself with the cancellations. Have a nice drink and chill out a bit before making big decisions, recommend that also while you are with your patients ;)
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    texex91
    Wow, that seems a little harsh, but everyone has their own opinions and level of tolerance. Have they not offered to pick up your car for repairs? A lot of the issues you refer to are know and have fixes as your car was probably an early production vehicle. What is your VIN?

    Have you talked with the SC manager? If so, what did they say? Have you talked with their regional supervisor?

    I too have had multiple German cars (Porsche's, Audi's, etc) and no issues. I had a friend that had a BMW that was always in the shop. I too have a Grand Cherokee as a back-up car and love it--no issues. I have a P85+ and I have zero issues. I guess like anything, cars can have issues, and it seems as though they are taking car of it (one issue you just reported yesterday--it takes a day to get scheduled sometimes).

    I can tell you are frustrated, but I would run it up the chain at Tesla, before getting too worked up. Most Tesla owners of P85+'s are probably pretty busy people, and Tesla seems more than accommodating to them.

    Hope it works out, as this is the exception and not the rule.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Bardlebee
    I feel for you miamind. I would be upset with problems on a six figure car. However, I would not be so hasty as to judge Tesla's product overall. I personally haven't seen widespread issues with these problems or else we would see it all over the forum. Hopefully your case is rare and I don't think you should judge the Model X just yet.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AnOutsider
    I haven't had the wind noise issue until I got a loaner... I can commiserate with you on the annoyance at speed. I can ignore it since I know I'm giving it back.

    That said, I don't mean to put you down in any way, but I think you may be being a tad unreasonable. This is a new car. Granted they've made something like 10k of them, but it's still a new car from a new manufacturer. I myself have had my car in for many things in the 10 months I've owned it (up until recently nothing severe), but service has made it a fairly painless experience. You admit to JUST reporting one of your issues. Give them time to make it right.

    On the other hand, perhaps this car isn't right for you. I don't say that to be dismissive either, but I know a certain class of customers are unwilling to deal with any sort of issues in something they pay good money for. That's perfectly acceptable IMO, and I've long said Tesla will need to get up to speed if they want to handle "the masses".

    So, if you can accept that there will be issues and that Tesla will take take of them.. stick with it. Otherwise, I'd cash out while the getting is good -- though IMO running and crying to the media does no one any good and only makes you look petulant (and/or like you are trying to threaten them into some sort of action).

    The handling issues seems to be more widespread, and I advise everyone to get it checked out. Some folks are getting free tire replacements because of it (I didn't because I had too many miles on mine). My own car developed the pano roof creaking, but was fixed in one visit. The wind noise is not something I've ever had (aside from in the loaner as mentioned -- so perhaps that's an issue that developed as a result of some "fixes" they've tried for the creaking).

    Either way, I agree. Not only is the Model S a great car, but Tesla service really does go out of their way to make things right, so it balances most issues out for me. As I said though, I know there are some that would prefer a 100% rock solid car out the gate.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    No I am really ****** off because seems like every week my brand new car has something that needs to be repair. The statement of Startup company is always used as an excuse. If you sent your car more than 4 times to a SC 4 hours away and does not get fix then you would understand. I think bad things happening should be also reported in the forum. I do not believe after waiting 5 months for things to be addressed that my attitude is over the board but I do respect your recommendations.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    purplewalt
    Oh my, sounds like a lot of drama in your life.
    I really hope you learn a lot more about accepting the bigger picture, patience and not being so demanding to have things resolved right now.

    Working toward a resolution with the local Service Center and achieving it would be a lot better than your petty rant.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    No drama in my life. Mine is pretty cool otherwise.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AnOutsider
    Not until a couple weeks ago did I have my handling issues addressed. That's almost 10 months of back and forth, so I feel for you on that. I know how annoying it is. I think some of us (well, I'll speak for me only) took issue with the tone of the post and the way it came off as "Tesla sucks and I'm gonna yell it from the mountaintop" for issues that have been experienced by others without such a powerful reaction.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    So demanding after 5 months trying to fix something? are you kidding me? You guys are not objective and I don't understand why but again respected.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    texex91
    I'll ask again...have you talked with SC manager or District Manager????? They can help--we can't.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    I guess you are more understanding than me. Congratulations on getting your issues addressed lol
    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes I talked to them in two occasions when I sent my car to SC. I will do it again but my point is that multiple visits same issue no fix is not justified and I know I am not the only one dealing with this.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AnOutsider
    Well, I'll be honest... I did get a little irate on the visit before last (where I finally got the handling issue mostly addressed, I think I need new tires and another alignment for it to be solid). I refused to take back the car until it was fixed, because I got denied new tires because I had them "too long", so I didn't want there to suddenly be a fix for the issue, but be denied because it was "too long" or something.

    As texex said tho, speak with the manager. I've found them to be accommodating.

    You're not. Many folks have gone in multiple times for the roof issue, the handling issue and other things that Tesla has been battling to fix "just right". Often temporary solutions are offered while engineering looks more into it. On the plus side, it's fixed for free once they DO know what's up.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Raffy.Roma
    @miamimd

    I can understand that you are complaining for the issues that you reported. I think that the real problem in your case is the Tesla Service that IMO should have readily fixed all the issues that you reported.
    But taking your complaints to the media level is too much IMO. Such a level of high complaints would have been understandable only in case of issues concerning the safety of the car and we know that the Model S is a very safe car. Just my opinion.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Guys when I said media I was referring to the forums. I am still a Tesla fan. To be clear and open these has not been the only issues. I have had condensation on taillights( addressed multiple times and still happening), trim on seats coming off, hood and trunk misalignment, etc. So when somebody said to me that I have not been understanding it does irritate me.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Raffy.Roma
    I can see how 4 issues multiplied by a 4hr drive multiplied by the times to get it fixed would get you agitated.
    a) The sunroof noise will make the car feel $60k cheaper, and is a pain. The early build may not help. Escalate to the supervisor and agree on a deadline: 2 more attempts in 8 weeks including a new roof or refund/buy back.
    b) This is for sure the alignment issue other are seeing: car toeing out due to undertorqued bolts. Agree with SC to go to a local alignment shop (they pay), provide them with http://craigfroehle.com/posted/ModelS_Alignment.pdf and get it fixed for <$100.
    c) Interior trim see (a) but I see no reason they should not be able to fix this.
    d) Panel gap: see (a)
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Ok nice to know it. Hope that Tesla will fix all the issues that you reported soon.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    zax123
    Agree with you
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    I have the wind noise issue too when going over 65mph. Is there a fix for this?
    �
  • 1/1/2015
    guest
    thats what people said. I have not been that lucky
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    texex91
    I'll ask again--have you spoken with SC manager or District Mgr?? If not, why not?
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    jrreno
    You might want to email your original post to [email�protected], that is Jerome Guillen of Tesla. He needs to hear your issues.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    steve841
    I am confused as to why you'd go to the Tampa SC rather than the Dania SC which is 30 minutes away and fully staffed :confused:
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    SwedishAdvocate
    Yes he has. See post #12.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    texex91
    Give the local manager and district manager a shot first---that's what needs to happen. Jerome can't get involved with every issue, he needs to know that his local and district guys have had a shot to fix first!
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Raffy.Roma
    @miamimd

    I agree with texex91. You should report your issues to a Tesla supervisor. I am sure you would get soon your issues fixed.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Did that too. Thanks
    - - - Updated - - -

    I live in Jacksonville Florida
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    texex91
    Well, I guess we'll wait and see what your escalation does, as there's not a lot more we can offer to help the situation.

    Hope it all works out and let us know how/when it gets resolved.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    I am sure it will. I just wanted to share what was going on. I do appreciate all of you guys input.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    lolachampcar
    from my response on TM
    No Pano for me as I expected issues with it and seldom use it.
    Ranger service because I value my time, expected issues from a new company and figured it was best if they came to me to fix them.
    Handling/swaying under acceleration well documented in the forums with one of a few possible sources. This will require the owners active participation to drive a solution.
    I'm on MS #2 and my wife's makes 3. They will have to pry it from my cold dead fingers even with the trials and tribs. of a startup. If you can consider going back to European ICE after a MS then I strongly suggest MS is not for you. Having owned many a BMW over the years, I can say your experience reminds me of them but, if you feel more comfortable with another brand, I would go that way.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    sp4rk
    You live in Jacksonville, yet you say in your profile, Miami?

    Tesla read these forums. Do you really think when they read your excessive OP rant, it'll help your "cause / case" with them? No offense to TMC but TMC is NOT the media so when you THREATEN Tesla indirectly with media, that hardly helps either. Yet media do scour these forums, so not helping either.

    We've ALL had minor issues with our cars; it's to be expected but I have to think back to what mine were. I'm glad to help them fix them!

    You then add you're still a Tesla fan, yet you cancel your Model X and threaten media? Contradiction? Inconsistencies? Also makes some wonder if this isn't a troll post, myself included? Just sayin'.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Lola I will not change my car to Germans no way. But I can not recommend the car to everybody because not everybody would be willing to go through all of this. I do care and love my car and will keep it and enjoy. But on the same page I will wait long time to buy the Model X for my wife because I don't want her to go through this (actually it would be me going through this lol). Even with ranger service they had to take my car to SC 4 hours away because in Jacksonville we do not have SC. I do not care if the handling/swaying issues are documented because this should not be happening. But again that's just my opinion. Take care and keep the good work with the suspension mods
    - - - Updated - - -

    For your info I already talked to Mr. Guillen who actually thanked me for my email and stated this is unacceptable and should not be happening. I am from Miami, owned properties and go there every month that's why my profile said Miami. I have been in this and the other forum for a while and you can check my posts. A fan does not not mean blind and without a voice when things are not right, JUST SAYIN
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    nrcooled
    My car was in for the annual service and, while I was there picking up my car, I was speaking with a tech that said they were applying the pano roof wind noise "fix" for the first time to a car that was in for service while my car was there. It was the first one they have done with the new "fix" for the wind noise issue.

    This was the Rockville, MD SC so if you get any pushback from your local SC you could give a call up to the Rockville SC and inquire about what the fix is specifically and the process to implement.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Thanks I will keep this in mind
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AnOutsider
    +1 - though like I said, I think your first post in the thread just came off a little harshly.

    When my car was in a few weeks back, I swung by to get something from my car and saw them working on the roof of another car. They were drilling/sawing to install something. The tech mentioned that while my car was in, they had done it to mine too. I had the squeaking noise fixed previously, but never wind noise, so I guess it's a proactive thing for all cars.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    steve841
    I've had more teething issues than most here ... I am a happy camper.

    Tesla (via this forum) and the local SC have really been great.

    This is coming from a guy who absolutely DREADS taking my car in for any kind of service.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    ckessel
    Boy, you guys are harsh. The OP has some serious issues and, to my mind, has been incredibly patient to live with many of them for 5 months. As much as I love Tesla in general and my P85 specifically, I'd be looking into state lemon laws at this point. I don't really think there's any excuse for Tesla to still have these sorts of issues, new company or not. They've had well over a year of production to iron out quality problems and Elon has stated quality is a HUGE deal to him, so there's no free pass on continuing issues at this point.

    Edit: full disclosure - I've had a BUNCH of issues. Pano a couple times, lots of rattles, 12v died, charge port door didn't open, door handle stopped working, bad wheel howl, the engine noise > 65 mph, some part came loose in a door and was rolling around inside, and probably a couple things I've forgotten.

    When someone asks "How's the quality been?", I have to wince because it's not been good. Portland service has been fantastic for me, a shout out to Jason who heads up the SC here, but quality has quite a ways to go to catch up to the companies Tesla is competing with (Lexus/Audi/BMW).
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Agree with you. It is actually quite interesting how people react to bad reviews or bad things happening. Thank you for your input.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Mario Kadastik
    I think most reacted to your initial posts final part the worst. The generic outrage, canceling of X and going to media, which did sound a bit over the top considering that from the initial post it seemed you had just had bad exp with one service center (people working at SC are still people, good and bad) without escalating this up the foodchain. If the escalations reached higher up or stopped and got discarded and the result was still crap, then I'd understand your attitude maybe, but not when you were just pissed with one SC and extended that to the whole company. Peace man and that's why I recommended the chill pill and thinking a bit before taking dramatic action :)
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    nikwest
    Yes, mine had this issues, too. Actually the rubber seal was jammed. The Tesla Service replaced it with a newer version once they had the spare parts. I was also told that it is some significant work required to replace it. Now it works perfectly so far ... even going 130mph on the German Autobahn ...
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    e4chan
    I feel your pain OP...I definitely can understand for a car that is 6 figures, that you expect service and quality. This is my main concern, when ordering the P85+ (still waiting)....as an early adopter, I expect anything can happen. Sometimes I debate whether to get an M5, but when I think about the gas, I tell myself "forget it". There is a certain tolerance level that needs to be set for early in the game for new stuff.

    I've actually had the same thing happen to 2 of my German cars - The Audi with it's electrical problems (stranded in -30 Celsius snowy weather, is not the most fun :() This happened twice on me. BMW...same thing.

    There are lemons out there....and really depends on how the car manufacturer takes car of their customers. I still think that if the corporate office can't fix it by "X" number of times, it should be considered a lemon and replace it with another vehicle.

    My other question though would be - how is Tesla "Quality Assurance/Control" on the cars. Is there any? Or do they just slap the car together and deliver it.

    Miamimd - Hope you resolve your problem and build up the confidence for Tesla again.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    miamimd
    Me too. Thanks and I will keep all informed
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    ckessel
    Something to keep in mind. Not an excuse, just something that's helped me. Everyone at Tesla works insane hours. If someone is short, or doesn't get back to you, or what not it's almost certainly due to stress and not because they're rude/mean/crappy people. I make an extra effort to be polite and say thanks because I know when I'm in those high stress situations those small things make it the job easier to handle.

    I suppose we should all do that every day, but human nature being what it is it's easy to slip (on either side), especially given the obligations/expectations inherent in a purchaser/provider relationship.

    I'm not saying to cut the issues you find any slack and certainly escalate up the chain if you need to be the squeaky wheel that gets greased, just realize the folks on the front line are probably really doing their very best.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Fonzie
    I've learned you have to go into this keeping in mind that you're jumping on the train of a new product. Wanna play with the newest toys? There are going to be bugs. Anyone who buys a car that's less than 2 years in the market is going to be an extended beta tester IMO. It comes with the territory.

    However, I agree that there are some embarrassing glitches with this car. There is a OBVIOUS issue with suspension that more and more people are experiencing. The toe coming out and people's rear wheels unevenly wearing is terrible. Watching that Edmunds.com review of the tesla and seeing that their car's rears were completely bald to the steel braiding only on the inside edge proved not only my car had that issue - but it's viral. The alignment of the car does not hold true in a lot of cases, and the tires as well as the ability to accelerate confidently in a straight line are compromised.

    I just traded in my P85 for a brand new +, and this car has issues that the other car didn't. Noises, rattling, etc. The build quality will get better.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Experiencing problems with a car that costs over $100,000 is an emotional experience, I can vouch for that. My car needed a new drive unit (inverter, motor, etc.) barely two weeks into ownership... Alcantara had bubbles in it... pano roof seal was being pulled under the roof line when closing (even though SC applied a bulletin prior to delivery)... front passenger door difficult to close... window regulator clips needed. After replacing the drive unit, the car received an alignment by a third party because our local service center was operating out of a temporary facility. The third party didn't do a very good job, my P85 felt squirrely on the freeway and would drift to the right, steering wheel slightly off to left, typical botched alignment job.

    I did raise my issues to the regional and VP level, which was addressed literally within five minutes of hitting the SEND button. I received a call from the regional manager to apologize, he offered to have the car sent back to the factory for a re-do. I felt that was a wonderful gesture, but probably unwarranted at this stage. Parts which I were told would take weeks to receive were suddenly being overnighted to Phoenix by various departments at Tesla. They made everything right and to my satisfaction. They re-did the alignment in-house yesterday - they just moved into their permanent facility which has an alignment bench - and it's perfect.

    I'm certain Tesla will take good care of you. It's unfortunate, but sometimes an issue needs to be escalated to executive management in order to be taken seriously. Jerome Guillen has said on multiple occasions that he wants to know when a customer is having trouble with their service center. I don't think the problems you are experiencing are extreme or unusual for this early production vehicle, what I find troubling is that these easily fixable items are not being addressed by your service center. In fact, when a car goes back to service, they should apply all service bulletins to that vehicle.

    I hope you get the resolution you seek. I would suggest dealing directly with the service manager at this point and ask him to personally inspect and drive your vehicle to confirm the issues you are complaining about. Also request a written receipt for all work that was performed. I was upset, too, but Tesla jumped and made everything right in the end. Give them a chance.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    brianstorms
    When I got a P85 loaner the first thing I noticed was wind noise in the closed pano roof. I mean it was bad from 25-30mph and up, on any street, and real bad on freeways. Being an S85 owner, the P85 was a thrill to drive though, a crazy rocket ship . . . so I didn't pay much attention to the wind noise :)
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    leonari
    The guy is ****** and thats OK.

    There are plenty of P85+ customers who have zero issues. If you believe that buying a german luxury car is an insurance for not having issues with a brand new car you are dead wrong! I bought a brand new Audi TT 8J in germany . From day one I had issues with power management (car feeling as if it has 20 HP - literally it barely moved), and brakes. 2 times the problem with the brakes was so bad I had to use the handbrake to get home. I am not joking!! We are talking about a 90.000 $ car here. The car has been to 3 different service centers for a total of 8 times. Promised me each time no more issues-car is fixed. The problem appeared again and again and again.

    So whats that? Audi is not a startup but one of THE most established car manufacturer in the world. The car was expensive. The car was brand new. The car was a piece of ****.

    You know what that is? It's called bad luck man. It happens. Can happen with a mercedes, bmw, bentley, aston, audi and yes indeed to a brand new Tesla Model S P85+. And it happened to you.

    I hope Tesla will resolve all your issues . My advice: Sell the car. Thats what I did with my TT. Forget Tesla and go back to those perfect german luxury cars and hopefully you will be lucky but there are no guarantees. Not with cars nor in life.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    NigelM
    Mod Note: Bunch of posts went to snippiness. As always, apologies to any innocents caught up in that move. It's not appreciated that the snippiness continued again after Dave's warning. Now everybody chill please, there's no need to discuss other folks writing skills and watch the language also. Thanks.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Krugerrand
    I don't think anyone's been any harsher with the OP than the OP himself. If he's spoken to the Tesla service people the way he's written his letter to Tesla, then it's no wonder his issues haven't been fixed. When you have to claim, "I'm a very busy physician and don't have time for this..." expressing it as if your occupation and your time is somehow more important than other's, you're going to have your audience shut off from you, particularly when you can simply have a Tesla Ranger bring you a loaner for however long is needed. That doesn't infringe on any of the good doctor's valuable time.

    Here's a little story. A rather large and powerful company was sending incorrectly charged bills for a property my husband and I own. Since the account was solely in my husband's name he had to call and ask that a correction be made. 6 months later and as many phone calls and still the issue was unresolved and the amount owing was growing at a rapid rate. My husband is generally very good dealing with people, he's always polite, very pc, but sometimes that nets him roadblocks and inaction.

    By this time it was clear to me that I was going to have to handle the situation, so the account was also put in my name. On my very first phone call,within 30 seconds I managed to get to a supervisor of enough status to actually do something. I didn't have to raise my voice, I didn't have to cajole, belittle or otherwise anger the person on the other end of the phone. I simply had to acknowledge to them that I fully understood the position they were, that they didn't have the power to help me and that that wasn't their fault. Thusly, they shouldn't have to deal with me. I had a wonderfully sensible conversation with the supervisor, she was charming and helpful, manually overrode the computer even though it was against company policy, and flagged my account to be personally watched for the next three months to make sure the error didn't repeat.

    Point being, it's all in how you express yourself and how you talk to people. A lot of people have lost those skills because of cell phones, ipads, social media and that whole movement away from talking to each other face to face, eye to eye. I'm so far from PC it isn't funny, but I'm honest and fair. I guarantee if I was the doctor's wife, he'd have no reason to write such a letter and post it on an Internet forum. Indeed, I'd have forbidden him to waste his time doing such a thing AND his car would be fixed. :wink:

    Now if he'd like to claim that there shouldn't have been anything at all to fix on the car in the first place, then that's a different matter all together and we'll agree to disagree.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    gameon
    I agree with OP. Anyone can get upset :cursing: with $130k car...heck even with $20k car (leaf or spark EV etc)

    I always feel complex technology (not expert in computer-related stuff) come with extra baggage. I am not worried about repairs under warranty but what happens when you encounter such a problem after the warranty period. We all know that tesla is high tech vehicle and nobody, but tesla service center can repair it (mom & pop shop has no idea about many hybrids left the EV out of question)

    You certainly want $130k car to last many years with minimal problem and helping startup is not OP or any buyers first or last goal.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    100thMonkey
    I think the OP has the right to be mad, and I thank him for having the stones to come forth. I think a lot of S owners are huge fans, myself included, on top of that a lot of us are investors. too many are reluctant to press for improved quality control for fear of hurting the brand and perhaps even hurting one's own investment in TSLA. It's been hinted at, but not really taken head on much, it appears that Tesla has a quality control issue with some of the early VINs. by going to easy on Tesla, we all risk sending the wrong impression, which could hurt Tesla in the long run. the more main stream the buyer pool gets, the less acceptable all these little and sometimes not so little quirks will be. Fortunately, it seems that the latest cars coming out of the hatchery are pretty rock solid but being too reluctant to air concerns may actually send the wrong message so we really shouldn't shame anyone who comes forward, even if it's in a fit of anger. I think Tesla needs a little reality check. I've owned quite a few new cars over the years and very rarely had to go in for repairs within the first few years. My first S was an early VIN and it too had a lot of issues and I eventually got fed up and that's coming from someone who is very passionate about Tesla and very much wants the EV revolution to crush the Oilogarchy... it's hard to admit that there have been issues so take it easy on the people who do, aside from the hit to pride, it should only make Tesla stronger as they find ways to address concerns. Any new company has this hill to climb.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    I agree that it wasn't the best presentation. I also had issues that required escalation to a VP, however I was always polite, respectful, and deferential. I believe that once you tell Tesla that you're going to the media, you've told them that you've already made up your mind. If true, then what is Tesla's incentive to make you happy if you've just finished telling them that you are going to bad mouth them in the media and to other prospective customers? That's pretty much how you ended your email. Usually the last thing that you say is what the reader remembers the most.

    What's that saying... you attract more flies with honey than vinegar? I would have taken a more humble approach.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    Although, to be fair, I do remember you were still jumped on in the same manner, despite the better presentation. If not here, then over on the official forums (I can't recall).
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AMN
    Sorry about your bad luck with Model S. Ours has been flawless so far. The best car we have ever owned.

    We have had many cars over the years (3 AMGs, 4 M's, 2 Porsche turbos...) and they all had issues - failed turbo on a Porsche, cracked spoke on an AMG rim, blown SMG transmission on a 1 month old M5, trunk randomly popping open while driving on a 2013 ML63, etc. I guess they are all inexcusable in cars that cost that much. We managed though. :)

    I am sure this thread will hit a couple email boxes in Fremont and Tesla follows up on your issues.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Agreed. I was also called a troll and an idiot. At least you find out pretty early who are the stock fanatics. Or Tesla Extremists as I call them (lol)...

    My comments had more to do with presenting the OP's argument to a Tesla VP. I find that letting the fact pattern speak for itself is the strongest statement, and without the emotional editorial comments that may be perceived as insulting by the reader. If you want Tesla to fix something, insulting them is probably not the best approach. But when you're really upset, as OP has a right to be, sometimes it's difficult to walk that line.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    DIL

    I've been a loyal Toyota/Lexus owner and fan for a long time now for exactly this reason. There's something to be said for the bulletproof reliability they somehow engineer into their products. The level of QA is something Tesla is striving for, but they're obviously running as fast as they can to meet global demand right now. It's not an excuse, just a fact. Like many of of you, I'm willing to take a little bit of risk for a product that is clearly ahead of its time. That said, the vast majority of owners that I'm aware of both here and in chance encounters are incredibly pleased with the product and the service.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    hockeythug
    Do you have a link to your thead? I tried seaching your posts but I don't think the forum lets you search for threads created by a certain user.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Todd Burch
    Humans tend to form opinions about product quality at a microscopic level. If we have a poor experience with the quality of Company A's product, we tend to believe that Company A's product is terrible. If we have a great experience with the quality of Company B's product, we say that Company B's product is excellent.

    At a macroscopic view, neither is correct--the reality is somewhere in the middle. Are most carmakers going to exceed Tesla's current state of manufacturing quality? Many will. They've been around much longer and they're not ramping up at an insane pace.

    However, in most cases Tesla will make things right. I have some gap and flush issues on my car, but hey--I'm VIN 1653. I expected issues like that buying an early car. Does it irk me? Yes. Paying this much for a car, you expect the same quality as any other high end car.

    Having said that though, no other car on the planet can give me the same overall experience as this car. It's about the total package. You have to be willing to sacrifice a little for that privilege. Tesla will get better, the cars will continue to improve, and hopefully all the issues with your car will be improved.

    It just comes with the territory.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    I don't know how to dig up an old, private thread at the TM forums. A google search won't reveal it, and there's no way to search at TM. So unfortunately, I have no way of finding it either other than to go through every page of the forum postings.
    �
  • Oct 25, 2013
    wormhole
    My Pano issues just got fixed yesterday...it required the following:

    1. Removal and complete replacement of the black piece between the windshield and the Pano - and by black piece i mean the entire roof section that runs from drivers side door window to passenger side front door window.
    2. Completely new 'gasket' around the pano
    3. Also changed out the butyl or whatever it is that kept melting and streaking down the back part of the roof every time I opened it.

    was done out of the White Plains, NY SC.
    �
  • Oct 25, 2013
    DIL
    +1. Very well put.
    �
  • Oct 26, 2013
    jak
    Got a P85+ loaner last week that had the pano roof issue. I, too, would find it unacceptable if I had that problem with my car irregardless of whether the company was in startup mode. 100+K car? No leeway... Keep at it until you get it fixed. The SC was well-aware of the pano roof problems and I was told they do have a fix for it, but it takes a whole day to get it fixed. Sooo busy they don't have time to fix the pano roof problems on the loaners.
    �
  • Oct 26, 2013
    Denarius
    Frankly the excuse that this is a startup and a new car and you should expect to have issues is doing more damage than good. ALL car companies have issues with vehicles. A good friend of mine has had his BMW 4 months, it has been at the dealership for 37 days of that getting service done due to an assortment of issues. Tesla is not immune to it, just like every other car manufacturer.

    I hope you get your issues sorted out. My P85+ has been fantastic, the best car I've ever owned by a long shot. I wouldn't trade it for anything. (Well, I'd trade it for a few cars that are worth more, sell that car, and buy another P85+ and bank some cash). Every minor complaint I've had has been addressed completely.
    �
  • Oct 27, 2013
    Electric1
    Btw, I've probably had fewer teething issues than most, but I had no pano creaking until I took mine in for service and they gratuitously made a mod to my roof and now it creaks, but not bothersome enough to take in just for that
    �
  • Oct 27, 2013
    aznt1217
    Hmmmm the way the e-mail was worded probably didn't help. Did you include any pictures of the things?

    Stinks that you are having issues though. What's odd to me is that they didn't just send you a ranger and give you a loaner. Perhaps what would be better is having Tesla give you a loaner while they take your car for an extended period to fix everything on it, instead of having it in 4 different times.

    It's good that you have German cars with no issue, but you are the minority and once again in the minority of Tesla Model S owners it seems... Anyway, post an update of what happens. Curious to know how it's handled.
    �
  • Oct 27, 2013
    gnelson
    I am perplexed why the solution to a problem is to buy a German car. I had a Mercedes that I traded for a Cadillac STS in 2006. It was a tremendous upgrade. There was nothing intuitive in that Mercedes. I needed to get the manual to accomplish simple things. The Mercedes was nosier, slower and handled poorer. I drove that STS until 2012 when I traded for a Volt. I have never had a single issue with the Volt. It is an amazing car with exceptional technology.

    I can't imagine trading a Model S for a German car. I have been lucky with my P85+ and hope the OP can get his issues resolved.
    �
  • Oct 30, 2013
    Heinz
    I've had my car for 11 months. It's the best I've ever owned.
    �
  • Oct 30, 2013
    NoMoGas
    Is it possible to be more douchy? You had some MINOR issues with the car and by your own admission your new issue was reported 24 hours ago and now your pitching a fit and throwing a temper tantrum, lashing out like a petulant child. I'll forgive the non-stop grammatical errors and try not to draw any conclusions of your intelligence based on it, but your full frontal attack against Tesla, their product, and their future products display a degree of over-reaction that seems suspicious to say the least.

    Perhaps you are used to cheaper cars, but this is a BRAND NEW car company. Not everything is going to be perfect. Escalating issues and even bringing them up in the owners forum privately would seem appropriate, going public and threatening Tesla with bad PR is poor form to say the least.
    �
  • Oct 31, 2013
    AMPd
    Plus+ 1
    �
  • Oct 31, 2013
    Nathan Smith
    Sorry Fanboys,

    have to be with the OP here... It's an $100K. For a lot of people that is more than a years salary, a very significant part of a home cost, and largest purchase outside of thier home they would make -- even more than sending thier kids to college. I don't recall anywhere stating that our $100k was for access to a Beta program, so expectation is that the product will work as advertised. An no, it doesn't matter the age of the company, that's just a lame excuse. For me losing 4 hours to take my vehicle in to be repaired is a lose of $300, since it will almost always be during the week. His acceptance/patience with these issue would likely be a lot more if it only cost him 30 minutes. BTW: minor is totally subjective - but I would suggest these weren't minor to him, given his time invested tring to get these issues resolved.

    Basic point - people shouldn't be getting on peoples cases because they vent thier frustrations (I don't here them saying they are ready to return it for a chevy). They have every right given the major investment they are placing in the product and the company. For some, $100K may not be a big deal - but for most it really is...
    �
  • Oct 31, 2013
    Luclyluciano
    +100. Common sense.
    �
  • Nov 1, 2013
    mnx
    I agree a lot of us Tesla fans cut them a lot of slack and make excuses for them. However I don't understand why anyone would waste hours of their precious time when ranger service is available?
    �
  • Nov 1, 2013
    SFOTurtle
    I'm not making excuses for Tesla or hiding behind the "start up" response. The problems need to be fixed. But "communicating with current, future, and possible costumers (sic) in the media" is NOT COOL, especially the efforts that Tesla seems to be making in good faith to solve these problems, and the countless stories of success for other car owners in solving similar problems. Fine to vent frustrations on this forum and seek advice, but then don't complain if you don't follow the advice and take the logical steps to alleviate the issues.

    I'm wondering if the OP is having problems communicating with Tesla or doesn't understand who to escalate the problems to. If the OP has this many (countless) grammatical, spelling, and syntax errors with plenty of time to prepare these messages before posting, is it not possible that there is some communications gap in the face to face communications where the two sides just aren't communicating as they need to be? And that maybe why the OP is reluctant to have a ranger come out for some other reason?
    �
  • Nov 1, 2013
    NigelM
    Mod Note: one post went here - snippiness - along with the innocents who quoted it (sorry innocents).



    P.S. Let's show some tolerance for folks who have English as a second language.
    �
  • Nov 1, 2013
    Grendal
    I work in retail and one thing I have learned is the you can't please all the people all the time. Some people are more tolerant than others. What one person is willing to accept could be absolutely intolerable to someone else. Tesla, as a retailer, will have to deal with the whole range of customers. This will become more prevalent as Tesla moves more and more into the mainstream.

    The customer is always right.

    That phrase was created because, more often than not, the customer is not right. As the company selling a product your job is still to please every person that buys your product. Which means, that even if the customer is completely wrong, you've got to do your best to make that customer happy anyway.

    But that said, you'll never be able to make every person happy and satisfied. That's the Catch-22 of selling a product. :)

    Sorry for the speech.
    �
  • Nov 1, 2013
    detlefo
    I too had a very noisy pano roof, with a disconnected front gasket. At that time (end of June 2013) my closest SC was San Rafael and I live in the Sierra foothills. They were dealing with all problems North of San Francisco and very busy. I met the manager in Rocklin when he was interviewing for staffing the Rocklin SC and swapped cars. The 85P loaner also had a pano roof and was far quieter than mine. Repair took over a week, but I had the 85P so no worries. When finished they flatbedded my car to my house in the Sierra foothills and picked up the loaner. Noise was greatly reduced, but, still not acceptable. I decided to live with it until the Rocklin SC was open and when it was convenient for me. Took the car in yesterday and went along for the test drive confirming the noisy roof. The tech, Patrick, seemed to understand the problem and told me that engineering had devised a solution. Picked up the car today and all was fixed. They also fixed a creak in the pano roof and the c pillar which I had not even noticed. Fixing the pano was fairly involved and included replacing the front fascia. There is a Service bulletin on this problem (SB-13-24-006) and a repair kit (Front Side Applique Kt Assy 1026859-SO-A). I have only driven the car home up Interstate 80 at speeds up to 75mph. There was virtually no noise from the pano roof. As an added bonus.:smile: I was his by a rock on the freeway several weeks ago which put a significant dent and scratch in the very fascia that was replaced. They also updated my firmware to 5.6 so I am a happy camper. I suspect that earlier failed attempts to fix the noise problem were before engineering came up with a fix.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    NigelM
    Mod Note: more posts went to snippiness. Apologies to innocents caught up in the move. Seems like half this thread ended up over there....
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    When you buy a brand new, revolutionary automobile design in its first year of production from a company that has never produced a vehicle like this or in this type of scale before, it's naive to expect a trouble-free experience filled with perfection. I don't know what some people are expecting, especially since problem reports are available here and at the TM forums for all to see. I did a tremendous amount of research before I pulled the trigger. I hoped for the best but did expect to have some issues. As it turns out, I ended up with some of the common issues reported here and elsewhere. I have had those issues addressed to my satisfaction and now the car is as close to perfect as I could reasonably expect.

    Sure, it's bothersome to have problems with a car in this price range. But to not expect problems just because of the high price is being totally naive and ignoring the reality. I do recommend this car to friends and people who ask me about it, but I also tell them to expect issues.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    SFOTurtle
    Agree 100%
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    dsm363
    It's how a company handles the problems that is a more important factor in the early game than if there are issues. If money=no issues then Ferrari would be a trouble free brand. They have 100 years of experience too so there should be absolutely issues then.

    I agree, spending this much on a car and dealing with issues (some big ones) is not fun and shouldn't happen but what other car company can you e-mail one of the VPs and get a response? I realize as the company grows this won't always be possible though.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    aznt1217
    miamimd do you have any updates?
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    Nathan Smith
    Ok, what other industry do you evaluate a product based on the newness off the company (even though Tesla isn't new)? Or evaluate a product by the design (even though the Model S isn't THAT revolutionary) alone? For me, I evaluate a product by how well it does the things it promised to do. If I am going to pay a premium, I expect a premium product. At this price point, I would EXPECT nothing less. I expect a better overall experience than I had with my Honda Accord, which was 1/4 the cost. Generally speaking, I don't care about the age of the company - just the product please.

    And contrary to popular belief on the forum, 90% of the Model S isn't *new* or revolutionary. Having trouble with a steering wheel, for example, whould be TOTALLY unacceptable. Having troubles with Panoramo roofs is a bit more acceptable, as I hear (rumors mostly) that most manufactores that offer them have some issues with them as well. Having troubles with the batteries, should not be expected (as were not Beta testers) - but is a lot more acceptable than say creaking noises.

    I, and owner, has put in a significant investment into this purchuse and should have nothing short of the highest expectation for it. Tesla gave no notice of this being a car in development, nor did they call us Beta testers - instead we ARE owners of the most amazing car on Earth... And should have expectation for such.

    All that said, everyone/everything falls short of expectations from time-to-time. When it happens, Tesla needs to ensure its owners are returned to the expected levels ASAP with as little pain/additional cost to the proud owners.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Tesla is a new and unproven company compared to GM, Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc. GM has been around for 100 years, Tesla barely 10 years. GM makes many different models, by the many millions. Prior to the Model S, Tesla had only designed and hand assembled fewer than 1,500 Roadsters. Using your example... having trouble with a steering wheel would be totally unacceptable from GM, a company which makes many millions of them and has done so for many decades. Model S is Tesla's first car to use power steering, and many aspects of the steering system are a first for Tesla. I'm not talking about what's common in the industry, I'm talking about what is new for Tesla. Model S is totally new and a bold departure from anything Tesla had done in the past. New battery design, new undercarriage/chassis, new steering system, new electronics, new suspension system, new everything. Model S is Tesla's first automated production car as well, first ever vehicle for Tesla to roll off a robotic assembly line. You simply cannot have the same expectations of initial quality from Tesla that you do of Audi, Mercedes, BMW, etc.

    Each person is in charge of their own expectations, and it's the expectation (whether realistic or not) that determines whether someone is satisfied with a particular experience. My expectations were moderate given the newness of this vehicle design and the fact that it incorporates design and technology that are a first for Tesla. Mistakes will happen and improvements will be made in the future. Sure, it would be great to get everything right the first time, but given the reality, anyone who is expecting a trouble-free run probably has the wrong expectations.

    That's just my opinion.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    Shumdit

    Well said, and I agree. To me it's amazing the car is a good as it is from both a QC and design standpoint. I think things like the b-pillar wear are something a more established company already learned years or even decades ago and avoided a design like that as a result, but it does not mean I think Tesla is to be criticized for not figuring it out before it went into production. I hope they will find a "fix" for issues like that, but so far I have been impressed with the way that they have addressed many issues that have arisen.
    �
  • Nov 2, 2013
    eAdopter
    I think what Nathan is trying to express is that expectations can (should?) vary by price point. Comments by @AR and others are correct and would seem fitting for many cars, maybe even for a $80k car. However, I think Nathan had higher expectations for a $110k+ car. While I can understand how some people are reasonable to cut TM slack because of circumstances, it's also reasonable to have very high expectations at the P85 price point. Each argument has valid points, and because they contain a lot of opinion, neither is wrong. Does this argument really need to continue? Can each side simply say "Yes, I see what you mean." and move on?
    �
  • Nov 3, 2013
    jerry33
    Works for me. I'd suggest that with a Tesla you are purchasing about $20K of pre-paid fuel, so expectations should be about $20K less than the actual sticker price.
    �
  • Nov 3, 2013
    wormhole
    Hasn't this thread really gone on long enough? No one has the right to tell another person whether or not their expectations are out of line or otherwise. The OP has a right to feel how he feels. Just as the fan boys and girls have a right to feel how they feel. Hopefully the OP's issues have been resolved. I'd suggest this thread gets closed and we all move on.
    �
  • Nov 3, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Agreed.
    �
  • Nov 10, 2013
    C-NRG-GO
    My car is at a service center for the swaying problem you described. Did that problem get fixed? What was done? Thanks in advance!
    �
  • Nov 10, 2013
    Larry Chanin
    My Model S had a left-right swaying problem under very hard accelaration. When I took it in for a tire rotation at 6,600 miles the Tampa Service Center also applied various Service Bulletins and did a four wheel alignment. Problem solved.

    I experienced this problem even when the car was new, but because I rarely accelarate to that degree I procrastinated since the problem only manifested itself three times. I believe the alignment was off ever since it was delivered, perhaps due to the transportation process. Regardless, an alignment resolved the issue for me.

    Its possible that my situation is different than the doctor since my problem wasn't exactly fishtailing where the rear end comes out. To me it felt like the car moved rapidly left-right. It was nevertheless unnerving especially to my passengers. On the last occasion I had two other club members with me when we were traveling to a Supercharging ribbon-cutting ceremony. When accelarating hard out of a rest stop the problem manifested and my passengers were screaming like girls. :wink:

    Larry
    �
  • Nov 10, 2013
    C-NRG-GO
    Larry, thank you so much. I have exactly the same problem you had. My car had 4300 miles on it when I took possession and it had been shipped from New York. I noticed it on the drive home from the SC - whoa what was that? Then I took it out for a spin a few days later, and I punch it, the car sways back and forth a few times, so I take my foot completely off the accelerator and it happens again even a little worse. Had it flatbedded the next day and I'm hoping to get it back soon with rail like handling :) Cheers.
    �
  • Nov 10, 2013
    Larry Chanin
    I have never experienced this problem on deaccelaration.

    Larry
    �
  • Nov 12, 2013
    C-NRG-GO
    UPDATE: The SC did a rear alignment and the handling is spot on now. Swerving issue gone. What used to be a 90 minute bore of a drive is now like a ride at Disneyland!
    �
  • Jul 14, 2014
    mandfunk
    Well said Mario!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry, but I have to call BS on this...you originally said: "am communicating with all of you through this email as I will share my experience with current, future and possible costumers in the media. "

    Its pretty clear to all of us that this was meant as a threat and that you clearly didn't mean only TMC. From the sounds of it, perhaps the local SC is just fed up with the attitude. I can understand some frustration, but how bad is it really when the local SC is coming to you, dropping off another Tesla loaner, doing the repairs for free, and then delivering your car back to you again, at no cost? Even if they don't get it right the first time, it costs you practically nothing in time or money, and in the meantime you are wracking up free miles on the loaner car.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So true...I had $100,000 Mercedes S class for years. After about 50,000 miles, it was in the shop for something about every 6 months, and each visit averaged about a grand every visit!
    �
    • Người đăng: vào lúc

    Không có nhận xét nào:

    Đăng nhận xét

    Đăng ký: Đăng Nhận xét (Atom)