Thứ Bảy, 4 tháng 2, 2017

Denmark: P90D sticker price to increase 180% on Jan 1 2016 part 1

  • Oct 9, 2015
    THKS
    Danish parlement today announced a political compromise on future taxation of electric vehicles.

    Evs priced above 800k DKK (120k USD) are to be imposed a 180% registration fee. EVs below 800k will have the 180% registration fee imposed over five years starting with 20% of the fee in 2016 growing to 40%, 65%, 90%, 100% from 2017 to 2020. The registration fee is levied after a 25% VAT (sales tax). The finer print on calculating the registration fee stipulates various minor reductions for safety, emissions, etc. But in rough terms these are only minor reducing the actual levied fee to about 170%. Hence the the fully equipped P90D will go from 1.2m DKK December 31 to about 3.1m DKK on Jan 1!

    No wonder all used high end Teslas have 'call for price' on the various used car sites. I suspect a spike in parallel import of high end Tesla's leading up to December 31! Happy days!

    News source in Danish http://politiken.dk/indland/politik/ECE2879509/regeringen-indfoerer-gradvis-afgift-paa-elbiler/
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    THKS
    Slight miscalculation on the new price more like 2.9m DKK (calculating the registration fees are not straight forward), which equates to 440k USD for full equipped P90D.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    Electric700
    This is ridiculous! A 180% sticker price increase? :scared: They should be doing this to ICE cars.

    We need to start lobbying the Denmark Government.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    jeffro01
    Ouch... It's hard not to see that and make a political comment... :)

    So I'll just say ouch and be done...

    Jeff
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    Cyclone
    I echo Jeff's sentiments.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    efusco
    The irony being that their next door neighbor, Norway, offers essentially 50% off the price of a new EV/Tesla Model S due to not having to pay the 100% car tax that's otherwise imposed.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    eye.surgeon
    I'm fairly sure the Danish government isn't interested in the opinions of non-citizens on their tax policy.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    sandpiper
    HOLY $HIT! So a $100,000 car is $100K + 25% + 180% of that = $350,000?!!!! :scared::scared::scared: I think they're in desperate need of a taxation revolt.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    efusco
    We saw several EVs when I was in Denmark this summer, so it's particularly interesting that they would be targeted.
    brown tesla denmark.jpg
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    kejsermad
    I have news for you all.

    All ICE cars in Denmark are ALREADY taxed with 180% tax plus 25% VAT! :cursing:
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    S'toon
    It's actually a match of the ICE tax. It's why there's a HUGE spike in orders in Denmark right now, and Bjorn is out of the running for the Tesla P90D upgrade.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    AlMc
    Sounds like the rest of October factory production should go to Denmark......:wink:
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    omarsultan
    Maybe this is one of the secret demand levels Elon talked about -- didn't he recently visit Denmark? :cool:
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    Atlantis
  • Oct 9, 2015
    P90D
    Please nominate any government interested in citizen's opinions (at all, never mind taxes) other than to regurgitate as lip service during election campaigns.

    p.s. some countries have 100%+ across the board import tariff on almost all vehicles ... even when they don't have local production of cars or the equivalent local industry to "protect." I think many governments will begin this "market" price racket in earnest as the TPP monster raises its head and demands to be fed. Fuel and energy prices, insurance, wheat, platinum, water, metals, ... prices will "adjust" in these ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Given Tesla appears to be production limited, whatever windfall might happen as the local market responds, once the tax axe falls, it cuts off forward sales.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    shokunin
    There's 2 chances for each region to win the car.. The first was to win a X for the first person to refer 10 people and to take delivery of 10. I think Bjorn is on the way to win that if he hasn't already. Even if you refer 100 people today, they'll likely not take delivery before bjorn hits 10 deliveries.

    The second was at the end of October whoever has the most referrals can then trade in their S for an X. In both cases, it's contingent on delivery and not just orders.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    ozweepay
    Taxation has historically run very high in Scandinavia compared to the U.S. This is either a great idea or a huge burden, depending on your political views, but personally I will just say I admire how well-run the Danish gov seems when I visit there.

    I just wonder, with a MS costing north of $400K US, if anyone will be able to afford them after the new year.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    eloder
    Well, it's just be no different than a Danish citizen buying a USD $70k-130k ICE car. As others have mentioned, they're just making the EV taxes match those of ICEs.
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  • Oct 9, 2015
    ozweepay
    Sure but how many Danes can afford a $70-130k ICE with that much VAT? Can you imagine how ownership of a $100K car would diminish in the US if the tax were 100%? I almost certainly wouldn't have a Tesla right now.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Seesaw
    Unless you see similiar taxes on private jets, artwork or yachts. I would be annoyed that the Government is penalising my aim to put my family in a clean, efficient and safe motor vehicle.i
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Fezzik
    Is there no major protest about this from the people?
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    grichard
    This changes my opinion on the Danish government's motivation for their vehicle taxes. Their original setup was: really good public transportation, great infrastructure for bicycling, punitive taxes on cars, and an exemption for EV's. In my mind this added up to a country with a really strong environmental priority. This may be a little quixotic for a country as small as Denmark, but it's understandable and I think generally admirable.

    Pulling the EV exemption makes me think that the priority is simply to discourage private transportation, for reasons of... what? It's immorally self-indulgent? I'm genuinely not sure. Wind power resources are great in Scandinavia, so their grid is pretty clean. It strains credulity to think that EV's are still too much of an environmental drain.

    This leaves me really baffled. Anybody from Denmark able to clarify the government's motivation?
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Cyclone
    I imagine it's all the lost revenue, but personally I would have hoped EVs still get some benefit because they keep it out. Is it Norway that also charges significant gas tax and thus, EVs are exempt from that? If so, does a similar incentive exist for Denmark? Zero taxing of EVs was going to end eventually, but hopefully they aren't taxed equivalently to ICEs.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    kejsermad
    It is only expensive EV 's such as Tesla which is taxed equivalently to ICE cars. It will happen over the next 5 years starting from 1. january 2016 with berween 30 and 50% every year until 180 % is reached. Their motivation is "lost revenue" and envy. Nothing else. Small EV's keep their Price. Tesla will hopefully shortly take it to the European commissioner for Competition. due to the fact that its a practice that distort competition.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Seesaw
    Reading the first post I thought all EVs will have the 180% tax plus 25% VAT? It's just that the cheaper EVs will have it implemented over time.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    MsElectric
    It seems Denmark is currently governed by a bunch of nasty, narrow minded politicians who could not care less about the environment and breathing clean air. Almost seems like Denmark is run by a select group of US politicians :)

    Surprising given how different Norway is with their policies.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Seesaw
    Most ministers over there get the big Audi A8Ls, which they don't obviously pay for. The Queen over there has a Bentley Mulsanne!

    Prince Frederick has a Tesla, I find it poor taste that the vehicles are provided by the taxpayer (ministers cars, not sure about the royal cars) yet the taxpayer really hasn't got an opportunity to buy them themselves due to punitive taxes.

    suprised to effectively see the encouragement of EVs are being wiped out.
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    kejsermad
    Actually smaller EV's come even cheaper after the change. Norway will also implement taxes on EV 's within a few years but they really don't have to because Norway is probably one of the worlds richest countries with a fortune above 6.000 bilions and counting so they can afford anything in this direction no matter the costs :)
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    Seesaw
    Isn't Norway one of the biggest markets for Tesla after the U.S.?
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    kejsermad
    second biggest with something like 15.000 I think
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  • Oct 10, 2015
    RobStark
    Is the Danish government differentiating by price or size of the electric car?
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    kejsermad
    By price only
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    TomServo
    I'm sure the folks that can afford a Tesla there will still be able to afford one.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    evme
    I wonder if Tesla could still do something about that, for example. Let people buy the P90D but software limit the ludicrous mode. You would then pay 10k afterwards to get it unlocked. (Though Tesla might need to make it 12k or something like that to hedge against people deciding against it after delivery)
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    andrewket
    You got the first one correct, although I believe Bjorn would win anyway as he was the first to 10. The order of deliveries doesn't matter, as long as it happens.

    The second offering is to trade in your S for a Model S P90D, not an X.

    There is also a third offering to anyone who gets 10 referrals. They get the option to buy a founder's X.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    bylund
    The will drop the tax on NOx emissions. The main polluter here is not Diesel cars, but industries, and those are the ones the Danish government wants to give a break. A bad idea if you ask me, but this is not done to help VW.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    RobStark
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    RobStark
    There is a large number of folks that can afford to spend $80k on a car that can't afford $244k.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    Cyclone
    Especially if there are other on-going costs that the $80k would avoid. I don't know about Denmark, but Norway has high gas taxes and some road use/emission tolls that Teslas don't pay. Now, those are directly connected with fossil fuels, so hopefully Teslas avoid paying them in the long term, but it is something that makes the "overall cost" more level -- just like the "gas savings" in the U.S. Thus, some may stretch when they normally wouldn't pay $80k and they definitely couldn't pay $244k.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    AndersH
    It is completely nuts. Fortunately, I knew that something bad was going to happen with our new "black" government in power, so I ordered our TMS in August.

    To put the madness into perspective, our current government is supposedly libertarian/conservative. However, among the parties fighting for exempting EVs from these taxes is a left-wing socialist party who openly supports a communist revolution, when the timing is right.

    One thing to note is that the parties behind then law have agreed to reconsider the tax if EV sales collaps Considering that believe that current Tesla sales levels will continue with the taxes, they are likely to be very very disappointed.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    Haddock
    Workarounds

    These rules have been here for a long time for ICE cars and every workaround has been thought of and most of them have been blocked.

    What works is:
    * Lease the car instead of buying it. You come out ahead for expensive cars, though there's still a lot of tax. I'm sure Tesla will be doing this.
    * For exotics: buy 1-day numberplates on the days you use it. This is often done for Ferraris etc.

    What doesn't work:
    * Drive a German or Swedish registered car in Denmark (illegal if you are resident in DK)
    * Get a chauffeur from Germany or Sweden to drive you around in a foreign registered car (illegal)
    * Buy a cheaper model, then upgrade it to a more expensive model (you pay the tax due on both models!)
    * Buy a car then upgrade the engine by more than 20% horsepower (you pay the tax twice)

    What's unclear:
    * How to tax the car if the car is bought, but the battery is leased. I have a Renault Zoe with this model (bought when electric cars were exempt). There's no equivalent for ICE cars so it's unclear how this is taxed.
    * Does increasing the battery capacity 20% equate to increasing the engine power by 20% or is it like fitting a larger tank, which would normally be OK in Denmark unless it caused the car to become essentially equivalent to a more expensive model.
    * How exactly the mpg-equivalent will be calculated. The press release says "based on the energy content of a kWh, which is pretty dumb, since it's 1kWh by definition.
    * Might the BMWi3 with ReX motor (2-cylinder petrol engine for charging on the go) be cheaper than the pure electric?

    A lot of cars used to be sold in Denmark with no car radio, because nobody wants to pay a 200% tax on a radio. You would get a radio fitted the next day at the dealership. They changed the rules to exempt radios from taxation, but that actually went away last week too. Things like that might happen again with electrics.
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  • Oct 11, 2015
    Just a Reader
    Reconsider a tax? Seriously? I hope that Danish politicians are different than German ones. In Germany we are still paying the tax on sparkling wine that was introduced to pay for Kaiser Wilhelm's High Seas Fleet in 1902. The fleet has been history for almost a century but the tax is still going strong...
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    Lannister
    Hi. First post here. I'm from Denmark and I ordered my Tesla in late September. Last day of September was the absolute deadline where Tesla Denmark could guarantee delivery and registration within the current EV registration fee exempt before January 1st.

    To clarify our government's motivation: The Danish car registration fee is a very old system dated back to 1924. Back then, our government decided that the import of luxury goods - cars among other things - had too large an impact on the trading balance and so the fee was invented. Today, the fee is car base price + 25% VAT + 180% registration fee. It's a huge part of the Danish economics, having a great impact on the foundation of our welfare system. When EV was introduced, our government decided it would be good to add a benefit for those "driving green" so they made EV totally exempt of registration fee - at least until the end of 2015.

    Our government then discovered that too many were switching cars too fast, now people with a common income could afford a luxury Tesla for the same amount that an Audio A6 Limousine 1,8 TFSI costs here (which has the 180% fee + 25% VAT on top of base price) including myself! Some clever finance people made a calculation, that the current EV fee exempt was a money sink and so they decided to close the gap, not extending the beyond January 1st.

    View attachment 97450
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    kejsermad
    You are so wrong. In fact in Denmark we have tax on air in ice cream. This surely tells how badly and crazy things are taxed in DK. I guess nothing beats this!
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    RobStark
    In America, our phone bill has a tax to pay for the Spanish-American War because only rich people and rich corporations had phones in those days.

    Special taxes are relatively easy to introduce almost impossible to kill.
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    Yggdrasill
    Actually our economy isn't doing great. It's tied to the price of oil, and as the oil price is dropping, activity in the north sea is dropping off and thousands of engineers have been fired. There's also some worry as to the consequences of the Syria refugees. The expectation is 30k refugees this year and maybe as many as 100k next year. That's a 2.5% bump in the population, all of whom will need housing and all sorts of support.

    Still, the plan for the most imprtant EV incentives is to start the ramp down in 2018, and maybe 5 years later they will be gone. EVs should still be affordable, though. Beyond the 25% VAT, the plan is to base the purchase tax on emissions only, NOx and CO2. (Currently also non-electric hp and curb weight also factor in, but the plan is to remove these factors from the equation.)
    We have been bigger. We were the second biggest but China passed us and I'm sure others will pass us next year.

    Our problem is the economy, which has caused the NOK/USD exchange rate to slip from 6-ish to 8-ish over the last year. That has increased prices by almost 30%, and has pushed the Model S beyond the reach of a significant segment of the population. Luckily, Tesla launched the 70D, so Tesla should still manage to maintain a good amount of sales.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wow, going forward, do they really think they'll get meaningful revenues from the sale of Teslas?

    I assumed they understood the planned tax would eliminate the Tesla sales, but that the increase in sales of other models that are more taxed than the Teslas today would add some revenue.
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    Yggdrasill
    Interesting stuff. I wonder how this affects enabling supercharger access on 60 kWh Model S, adding Ludicrous, or upgrading the battery, as well as enabling autopilot on a delivered car... If you enable the autopilot - do you first you pay a 180% tax on an 80k USD Model S and then you pay 180% tax on the same car, only now with a basis in a 83k USD Model S?? (The reasonable thing would be to calculate the applicable tax for the more expensive model, then subtract the taxes already paid.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    If that's how they phrased it, I assume they will calculate the gasoline equivalent.

    A liter of gasoline contains around 9 kWh, so a Model S with around 20 kWh/100 km will use the equivalent of 2.2 liters of gasoline per 100 km.
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    Lauz
    It is quite simple (and sad). The following Quote is from the danish minister of taxation:

    "Electric cars have for a long time been better positioned than other cars by being completely exempt from the registration tax. Many regular Danes have a hard time understanding why they should pay the full registration tax for their regular cars while those who can afford an electric car have gotten off completely free,� Lauritzen said in a press release.

    We invented the law of Jante.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

    and now it shows it's ugly face once again...




    - - - Updated - - -

    It does not have a big impact on our welfare system. The total yearly revenue from the 180% + 25% tax on all cars (ICE + EV) is 16 billion kr out of a total government budget of 1.100 billion kr.

    In other words, 1,5% of the total budget. Not exactly a huge amount...
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    Yggdrasill
    One issue occured to me:

    Is it even legal according to EU regulation to perpetuate the FCEV incentives while the EV incentives are phased out? I thought these rules had to be technology-neutral, or it would by definition be a discriminating tax system. I don't see any legitimate reason to perpetuate the FCEV incentives while the EV incentives are phased out. The only reason why the EV incentives in Norway are allowed by the EFTA Surveillance Authority is because this is zero-emission technology. But FCEVs use 2-3 times as much energy per km, and are no better in the production phase, so this can't be used as an argument. You can't incentivize *less* evironmentally friendly alternatives while punishing *more* environmentally friendly alternatives. That's my understanding, at least.
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  • Oct 12, 2015
    mwulff
    As a dane with a Model S I am sad to see this tax go into effect. But there was only one contributing factor that caused this new tax and that was the Model S.

    Let me try to explain my point of view. Before the Model S then only electrics available where short-range and generally small junk-cars converted by manufacturers who didn't really want to build them. That market was too small and uninteresting to tax.

    Now along comes the Model S and we suddenly have a car that the middle-class can afford (barely) and they start flying off the shelves because most danes really want to do right by the environment. So now our politicians see that we can buy luxury, comfort and style without paying the tax-man, and in a country where everybody is jealous of everybody else this is can't be allowed to continue.

    So now they launch the debate where the Model S is presented as a tax-break for the ultra-rich. Never mind that studies show that mostly middle-class people own a Model S and that they stretched themselves to get it. The Model S becomes the symbol of elitism and wealth, both which are frowned upon, if not despised actively. They don't succeed except in the press, but that is enough for them to cancel all ev-tax breaks.

    So they sit down and design a system that punishes expensive evs (regardless of environmental impact) and the specifically target the price point of the Tesla. They argue that all Model S buyers who bought a $125k Tesla would have bought a $365k S-class instead thus costing the government a about $1 million a year in lost revenue. Never mind the fact that many people who could afford a $125k car can't pay $365k for it.

    So now we have a tax-system that rewards small junk ev's like the Leaf, because they are mostly bought by the government for local work and the only practical "primary car" ev available will be taxed to death.

    Expect to see all sales in Denmark stop 31.12.2015. We will have to wait 10-20 years for ev technology to become cheap enough for our tax-system. Maybe with the luck the Model 3 can be made cheap enough to fall below the "tesla-punishment point" in the new tax-code, but I believe they will lower the point if that happens. Danes can't have untaxed luxury.

    Personally I'm sad because I want everybody in this country to have access to cheap long-range electric vehicles over time. But these decision have turned back the clock on our local ev revolution by about 20 years I think.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    1208
    So you people are just going to allow this immorality to happen? And yet they call your Viking ancestors barbaric.:rolleyes:
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    AndersH
    There is a saying about the Danes that the revolution was cancelled because it was raining. Our acceptance of absurd taxes all stem from a very strong sense of community. We're all benefiting from the system, including myself as a parent and someone whose father had a long battle with cancer, which would likely have bankrupted the family, had it not been for free healthcare.

    However, there is a change of public opinion when it comes to car taxes, so hopefully a reform will become voter bait at some point.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    schonelucht
    This is very much against EU rules on free flow of goods and services. I am curious how the Danish government is able to make this illegal.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    Seesaw
    You can still have free healthcare and not pay 205% tax on cars. Where I live we pay 10% and have excellent free health care. When goods and services taxes become so punitive revenue can actually decrease as consumers stop buying (or they buy cheaper items to minimise tax).

    i must admit you can't compare across countries as they all have different priorities and I know the Danish have a generous welfare system that would certainly be expensive to fund.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    PBP
    In Denmark we dismissed the King absolutism in the mid 18.th Century, one reason being that the tax burden was too heavy. At that time we on average paid 10%. Today we have the honor of having full democracy and paying 58% in tax and additional 25% vat. AND NOBODY's COMPLAINING! We forgot to add in our constitution at that time that the state could not tax more than 10%!
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    AndersH
    I fully agree. Just look at Sweden, for example. I'm just trying to explain why Danes generally accept the high taxes. Me personally, I used to be against any sort of tax, but as I have grown older, I have no issue with the income taxes that I pay. Unfair taxes on goods like the car registration tax and pointless taxes on businesses, that I am absolutely against. But generally, I am happy with our system. As are most other Danes.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    dhanson865
    Maybe it's because the way they think about numbers? Just a Number - Scandinavia and the World

    Some Americans might consider that site close to NSFW but it's tame by comparison to most of the internet.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    ozweepay
    I think another poster (a Dane) said you had to order by 30.09.2015 to guarantee delivery in time to avoid the new registration tax. So Tesla is already unaffordable now in DK, unless you are ultra-rich.

    If the Tesla wasn't a symbol of extreme wealth before, it surely is now.

    This makes no sense: the Model S does not feel like a luxury car to me. If feels futuristic, and it feels fast and responsive, but my friend's with their high-end BMWs, Mercedes, Range Rovers have a much more luxurious interior than my Model S has.

    So Denmark has now put the Model S into the same category with these luxury cars. Tragic. Because really they should be giving rebates on Model S purchases (like the US currently does). The Danish government could make these cars very affordable for the middle class, and thereby make them commonplace (to soften the Jenke's Law effect). Instead they have done the reverse and made them symbols of extreme wealth, exacerbating the problem instead of ameliorating it.

    No long distance EVs are available at an affordable price in DK now. Wow.

    I would argue that Tesla is not a luxury brand. Especially if the Model 3 delivers at $35,000 US.

    I'm sad too... I have long looked to Scandinavia as a model for how smart people run their countries... not on this point, however.
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  • Oct 13, 2015
    jdbob
  • Oct 14, 2015
    RobStark
    Colonial Americans launched a Revolution over a 2% tax on Tea.

    Now the top marginal income tax rate is 39.6% plus State and Local taxes that can be as high as 10%.
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  • Oct 14, 2015
    AndersH
    But it all depends on what you get for your taxes. If all the basic services that a government should offer suck, any tax is going to seem unfair. I'm sure that stuff like law enforcement and fire services weren't that good in the colonial era.

    As for the Model S as a luxury car, I agree with ozweepay. If you look at European-spec VWs Passats and Opel Insignias (which are mass-market mainstream sedans), you're going to find interiors that (to me) feel slightly more well put together and with a higher grade of materials than the TMS. The TMS is expensive due to the same reasons that early computers and mobile phones cost an arm and a leg.
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  • Oct 14, 2015
    AustinPowers
    That is also a big point for debate in Germany currently. For this year the government expects up to 1,5 million refugees, plus uncertain numbers for 2016 onwards. Considering the impact such numbers are going to have on our welfare system (which is quite generous to be honest), people are worrying that the government will either raise taxes or cut back on subsidies (current or planned - like for EVs) to pay for the extra costs. we will see how this pans out.
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  • Oct 15, 2015
    S'toon
    That's not actually quite true. Colonial Americans launched a revolution over a tax BREAK to the East India Trading Company. This allowed them to undercut the local tea merchants.

    Interestingly enough, the longest period of sustained growth without any crashes was when the top marginal tax rate was over 70%, at if I recall correctly income over $2 million in today's dollars.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sounds like Denmark elected the Danish equivalent of Canada's Stephen Harper Conservative Party.
    Full article at:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-29/teslas-hit-by-180-tax-in-denmark-as-green-goals-get-left-behind
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  • Oct 16, 2015
    modex
    It also means Tesla cars appreciate over time instead of depreciate.

    Look at what happen at Denmark.

    Model s owners will make money when selling their used Model S, so you should buy more now and sell later. :biggrin:
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  • Oct 20, 2015
    Whitmarsh
    Well, in the UK we have a hugely expensive health-care system - and all sorts of other benefits - but we don't tax any car as heavily as Denmark and many other countries do even now, let alone after Jan 1. EV owners pay only 20% VAT on purchase but no Vehicle Excise Duty (which can be up to �1100 first year. �505pa thereafter), and are exempt from the iniquitous congestion charges that some cities levy. Furthermore, we get a one-off �5000 grant from the government. So move to the UK, all you Danes - our government seems to be more interested in the environment than yours!
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    vitaliy
    Well, on the positive side, few hours ago Ukrainian parliament cancelled import duty on electric vehicles. About 28% savings until January 1, 2020
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    e-FTW
    All the more reason, if it has not been mentioned before, to lock in your price now if you were on the fence about ordering.
    Even if you will not be able to take delivery for months, you can put your deposit down now, and push back the delivery to somewhere in 2016. And take advantage of the referral credit. Like the one that comes with my link...
    BTW, how much is the credit worth in Denmark?
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    Spidy
    You can't lock in the price. You have to take delivery and register the car in Denmark this year as far as I know to avoid the tax increase.

    Edit: Or was this about Ukraine? Then ignore the comment.
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    e-FTW
    My bad, I forgot this was not a Tesla price increase to account for exchange rate variations. If you are in a country where the value of the local currency is going downhill vs US, then yes, definitely lock in the price now!
    Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    What happens if one buys elsewhere in the EU and then moves car to Denmark, does it get taxed the difference in VAT and registration fee of 180% again. Shocking amount of tax.
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  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    No consideration to what you may have paid in registration tax anywhere else. The only thing that will matter after December 31st 2015, is weather the car has done under or over 2,000 km. If under 2,000 km it is considered new and will be taxed 25% vat and then 150% in registration tax based on the invoice (just been adjusted down from 180 % to 150% for all cars pr. January 1st 2016) If the car has done more than 2,000 km it is new and its resale value including tax and registration will be estimated and you will be charged accordingly.

    Shocking amount of tax, maybe - but you also have to consider that the money you use to buy a car with is money that already have been income taxed with upwards 60%. So after January 1st 2016, you will need to generate approx. $800,000 of income to buy a $100.000 car after income tax, vat and registration tax.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    cynix
    What if I get my wife to buy the car in another EU country, then sell it to me for �1 before moving it to Denmark?
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    Oohhh - bad idea. That would be considered tax evasion. So not only would you have to pay the full amount, you would also have to pay a fine upwards 1.5x the amount you should have payed and because the amount is over 500,000 DKK (approx $70,000) you would likely have to serve some time as well.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    dont give Bjorn (the famous one making the tesla videos) ideas or instead of nimber he will start buying more teslas in norway and resell in denmark using your idea :)
    Interesting query though.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    From Norway into Denmark (and the rest of the EU) there will be an additional 19% in customs before the 25% vat and the 150% registration tax
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    Thought Norway had some special agreement with the EU just like the UK for trade purposes.

    In the UK i have often bought stuff from various EU countries online as its often cheaper buying in the EU even after accounting for postage charges. I just get charged the extra difference in VAT and customs charges are exempted as it comes from the EU. Buying gadgets this way from germany and france etc is much much cheaper even after accounting for courier charges and have saved 30 - 50 % on deals compared to cost in the UK at that time and sometimes compared to the cost even now. Even buying from amazon in the EU (from various countries) and shipping them to the UK (with warranty) is still much cheaper if one researches and sets up instant alerts for deals for products that one is tracking.

    Since Norway has their own currency but some type of agreement with the EU like the UK I thought the same would apply for cars as well. I cant buy cars in the EU and ship them here due to the left hand drive and right hand drive differences complicating matters unfortunately. Otherwise would have done that by now.

    Looks like importing from the rest of the EU an used car one doesnt have to pay VAT or VAT difference compared to rest of EU but will need registration charges. So one could save 6 percent VAT buying from countries that have 19% VAT instead of 25% like in Denmark. No customs but dont know how the registration dept values the car for registration as they value the car. see SKAT: Importing cars and motorbikes
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    The UK is a member of the EU, Norway is not. That is also why all Teslas for the EU are going through Holland and cars for Norway are shipped directly to Norway :)
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    But Norway has agreements with the EU hence why they pay EU levies (for market access) while not having influence on formation of EU regulation unlike the UK, but both norway and Uk have their own currencies instead of the euro
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    Yes, and so does Denmark and Sweden. But you can not avoid customs on US cars in the EU by routing them via Norway, sorry :)

    Here are the rules for the EU: Importing vehicles into the UK - GOV.UK, which are quite different from Danish rules, as the car is exempt from duty and vat if you are moving to the UK, it seams. In Denmark we do not have that kind of exceptions.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    VAT isn't normally exempted for other products that I have bought from the EU, you pay the difference in VAT if the VAT one paid abroad is cheaper. But no customs to pay.
    Didn't look into it further as want sure if I could buy the version with the steering wheel on the right side for the UK in Norway etc and bring it to the UK. If possible then will have to explore this option as the savings would be worth the driving trip

    I do know that Norway had some agreements with the EU regarding trade and market access so am not sure if the non EU import rules apply to Norway regarding imports to the UK.

    As per EU rules the taxes are due in the country the product was bought in the EU and not the destination country except for VAT difference.

    Since Norway is part of the EU / EEA the same rules will apply all over the EU / EEA area regarding where tax is due Countries in the EU and EEA - GOV.UK
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    Another interesting point is that VAT is not due in ending country if more than 6 months old and more than 6000km used! Might need to explore the CPO options in other countries where Tesla is based in the EU :)Importing vehicles into the UK - GOV.UK
    "Second-hand vehicles
    You don�t usually have to pay VAT if you�re importing a second-hand vehicle and the VAT was paid in another EU country.

    You�ll have to pay VAT if your vehicle is classed as a �new means of transport� - ie it�s less than 6 months old and has done less than 6,000km (about 3,728 miles). HMRC will tell you if this is the case.

    Reclaim VAT paid in the EU
    You can reclaim the VAT you paid in another EU country. Send the Certificate of VAT you receive from HMRC to the person you bought the vehicle from."
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Zybane
    Do a lot of people in Denmark make really high salaries to off-set these crazy car taxes?

    To think I was complaining about the 4% tax I have to pay in Virginia over the 3% of my last state LOL.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    You have to remember that Norwegians do not pay vat on their EV's, so you would have to pay that.

    I know for sure that when importing a Tesla from Norway to Denmark you will have to pay duty of 19% and vat 25% :)
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Johann Koeber
    If this is of any help:

    Might I sell my Model S
    registered in March 2014 in Germany
    with 125.000 km on the odometer

    to someone in Denmark to help them out?

    I wasn't going to sell, but if I can help someone get into a MS quickly, so it be.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    rns-e
    You will be able to do that at no additional cost to a Dane if it is registred in Denmark no later than December 31st 2015. Come January 1st 2016, there will be added registration tax based.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    lmore
    It is correct that we don't pay VAT but the 19% duty is wrong, first add 10 % EU tax and then add 25 % VAT. The formula is:

    PRICE_IN_DENMARK = PRICE_IN_NORWAY*1.1*1.25

    I think it is possible to somehow avoid the 10 % EU tax, I suspect some has done that using a COC, it is not legal and I don't know how.

    I have some experience in helping exporting Model S from Norway to Denmark. PM me if you are looking for an AWD model S and I'll try to find one, there are still some available. Of course, if you find one in a EU-country that might be less expensive because of the 10 % EU tax.

    There is a silver metallic P90D Ludicrous in Norway, price about 127k Euro:
    Tesla Model S P90D Ludicrous als Limousine in Oslo
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Spidy
    Nope. Same in Norway. That's one reason Tesla is gaining such a huge share of the luxury car market in Europe, because they are selling a lot of cars where close to zero people buy something like a S-Class or 7series.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    RobStark
    Isn't Ireland a left hand drive EU Euro country?
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Caligula
  • Nov 26, 2015
    veryannoyingname
    There is no customs duty to pay for buying goods anywhere in the EU / EEA, that is the very basis of the EEA AGREEMENT for free trade as far as I know. For this reason you can buy from any Amazon website in any EU country and you will only be charged the difference in VAT between the two countries and not VAT twice in each country. Amazon does this automatically for delivery to the UK from other EU countries even when bought from Amazon websites in the EU. I have bought numerous times like this. No customs duty payable and only vary difference charged. The same rules should apply every where in the EU / EEA areas and even Switzerland which is not part off the EEA but has some agreements giving same rights. I haven't bought cars like this though but will look into this if cheaper to buy Tesla this way.

    Thanks for that reminder. Have been to Ireland but didn't drive there so didn't pay attention as was in Dublin city centre most of the time which is pretty crowded walking. Don't know if Tesla is in Dublin and if it is cheaper there then can drive over on the ferry! My brother in law had driven over on the ferry when he wasn't my brother in law and used to live there then but not any more.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    mwulff
    Just to clarify this.

    If you buy a used car anywhere in the EU you don't pay import-duty or VAT. But in order to get the license-plates for the car you have to pay a registration-tax up to 180% of the cars estimated value.

    For a dane to drive any foreign car on danish soil is considered tax evasion and it punished by a fine of up to 2 times the evaded amount.

    So there is no way around this tax no matter what you do. I know the system very well having imported several cars from around the EU for people.
    �
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