Thứ Bảy, 4 tháng 2, 2017

Barebones Ludicrous -or- Fully Optioned Model 3 ? part 1

  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    I've done some basic math and since it is approx 43 percent increase in cost to upgrade an S from a 70D to a P90D, I calculated that a Ludicrous 3 should cost about 15k more than the base 35k starting price ( 50,000 without options ). Now, I'm allowing myself a guilt free budget of at least $7,500 for upgrades since I will hopefully get the tax credit ( I was first in line at my tesla store on reveal day) , so now I'm asking myself , would I be willing to spend just 7 or 8 thousand more and have a Ludicrous model 3 but forgo the options I want ( leather seats, high fidelity sound system, supercharger access, full autonomous mode upgrade, and 20" wheels) ? Right now I'm thinking I'd be willing... feasibly I could upgrade most of those other options at a later date.
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  • May 28, 2016
    kzod
    Your math is deeply flawed. You can't assume a % discount on options. Also, you are expecting to get awd for free? That will be another $5k. And even a P90D doesn't include Ludicrous. It's a $10k option. So, don't expect to see any bargain ludicrous capable cars.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    Correction, it is a 56% cost increase, so dual drive model 3 would be about $54,600 ( 19,000 more not 15k more ). I think I still stand by my vote though.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    I don't expect it to be a bargain by any means, but now that my math is correct, with my 7500 bonus money I'm already giving myself, it would only cost me an additional $11,500 to have one of the fastest cars on the road. And why do you assume I'm expecting to get AWD for free???
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  • May 28, 2016
    182RG
    Meh. I think your math is way off. Extrapolating the current offering, I believe Ludicrous will be over $70K. You're short about $20K.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I really hope you are wrong.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    I don't feel the need to defend my math or logic any further. Tesla's website proves it, plus I worked in the financial industry in the past, and currently work at an internet company where I am intimately familiar with pricing practices across a wide range of product lines. Time will tell, but I'd be willing to bet a pretty penny that when Model 3 Ludicrous option is revealed, with NO additional options ticked, the car will cost right around 55k. Anyways this is more of a post to determine where res holders are most wanting to spend their hard earned money, on performance, or on options.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Performance and Options for me. Not to the tune of $70K though. That just puts this car outside of its class IMHO.

    I heard that the MS funded the M3. Maybe that's what made the MS overpriced in its class.

    What is the M3 funding? If the answer is nothing......then maybe the price structure of the M3 as compared to the MS would be different. I surely hope so.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    He is. Most people in the Model 3 market segment would rather buy 2 Model 3's for that amount of money. Predicting ludicrous 3 will cost over 70k WITHOUT any options is... well... just ludicrous ;)
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I didn't think of it that way. Yes indeed. I would rather have 2 M3's. lol
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  • May 28, 2016
    Derek Kessler
    Regardless of how the pricing shakes out, if your choices are all-out creature comforts or all-out speed, go for the comfort. Ludicrous Mode you'll only be able to use on rare occasions. Comfortable seats, quality sound, extended range, et al you'll be able to use every time you drive the car.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Good point. The problem I have is personal. I want to beat everyone off the line.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    You mean those rare occasions when I'm rushing to work every morning? ;) In all seriousness though, you make a good point. Thanks for the input...
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  • May 28, 2016
    Dan Detweiler
    In my mind (granted severely warped at times) Ludicrous mode is the most expensive 3 tenths of a second to be found. Have you driven a regular P90? So quick it will make you ill. Certainly plenty fast for me. To think of all the options you could get for that .3 seconds...hmmmmm...

    No thanks, I'll take the options, thank you very much.

    Dan
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    You may have just solved my dilemma... you make a very valid point. I've driven the 70D, a regular 85, a P85, and a P90DL... I bet if you had me drive a P90D and a P90DL, I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which. Thanks for saving me 10 grand!
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  • May 28, 2016
    Dan Detweiler
    One more thing to keep in mind. There probably won't be anything like a "bare bones" Ludicrous. Remember, with the Model S you have to get the biggest battery and dual motors. That in and of itself is a big step up in price...and that's before you add the 10K for Ludicrous.

    Dan
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    Right. I'm just going off of the minimum you currently have to spend to get that speed on tesla.com , it does come with some nice upgrades (i.e. supercharging would likely be included in the 3 like it is on the S) and more range, etc.
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    As others have said in this forum, the options maybe bundled to keep the costs down for a mass production car. I am in the same boat of having a limited budget and having to want all luxury and performance goodies. I love speed and acceleration but I think I would be very happy with 0-60 of 4.5 which under my pricing would be $49k and no need to go to the performance and ludicrous expense. I still don't know if I would pick the "FAST" or the Luxury package. I can't have both though!

    1. Base $35k
    2. Premium $39k (nav, power seats, heated seats, LED interior, keyless entry, instrument panel, dimming mirrors)
    3. Premium "FAST" $49k (AWD, battery)
    4. Premium Luxury $49k (auto pilot, wheels, paint, sunroof, leather, sport seats, LED headlights, hifi)
    5. Premium Luxury "FAST" $59k
    Plus options:
    Air suspension $2k
    Performance $15k
    Ludicrous $5k
    subzero $1k
    Total $82k
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  • May 28, 2016
    Chopr147
    No plans on getting Ludicrous but..........I would like those .3 seconds :) I may get most if not all options with the exception of ludicrous. A tax credit would surely help the decision along though :)
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    If you waited in line like I did, you can count on it:)
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  • May 28, 2016
    ratsbew
    I'd go for options over ultra performance. I'd be totally happy with 5.9 0-60.
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  • May 28, 2016
    FirstSea
    I want performance and range, but I'll take some options; I just hope they don't have packages for the options, I don't want to pay for extras I don't want/need.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Alketi
    I wonder what Tesla's margins are on the $10K ludicrous option? I'm assuming they're huge and I hope they're charging that much because the folks buying a $100K car afford it. Also recall that Tesla offered this upgrade at only $5K for a limited time.

    With the M3 in a different price market, I'm slightly optimistic that the M3 ludicrous option might be priced more reasonably -- perhaps $3K to $5K. Personally, if it's $3K I'd buy it in a heartbeat. If it's $10K I'll pass.
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  • May 28, 2016
    melindav
    Hands down I'd rather spend money on the luxury over the excessive spurt of speed.
    Here's what 90% of the time I spend driving looks like:
    [?IMG]
    Lot a lot of use for 0-60 in any amount of seconds when traffic doesn't get above 20MPH
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  • May 28, 2016
    Dan Detweiler
    First you're talking about Cougar Clubs...now excessive spurts of speed? People are really going to start talking now! ;)

    Dan
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    $82K OMG. Please don't let the Base to premium Luxury be a $24K upgrade. And please don't let the Performance (whatever that is) be A $15k upgrade.

    As James Brown would say "Please -Please -Please". Tesla - Are you listening?
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Great Points. $3-$5k would be great.
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    For MS the base 70 to P90D is $38k
    In my estimates base M3 to P??D is $29k which includes not only the PD package but some luxury features I think would optional on M3 compared to MS. Others have said the $4k I have added for premium would be standard. If that's the case then the PD package would be $25k for a total of $60k which is great value with the tax breaks for a car with sub 4.5 0-60.
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    And almost 300 miles range.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Chewy3
    The Tesla Model 3 is supposed to be competing with the BMW 3-series:

    Tesla M3 : BMW 328i ?
    Tesla M3 Ludicrous : BMW M3 ?

    BMW M3 starts at ~$63k.

    Just a thought to add to the mix
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  • May 28, 2016
    wallet.dat
    ROFLo_O
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I was second in line. What does that mean for me?
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    That means you woke up very early that day! Sorry couldn't resist!
    I'm in California and I was 150th in my line. I'm fairly certain I will get the tax breaks. I see you are in Chicago which makes it harder to guess if you will receive the federal tax breaks.
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  • May 28, 2016
    zenmaster
    It would be interesting to see if Tesla would enter the sports car market with this platform, but I don't see it possibly being able to compete with any M car.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Alketi
  • May 28, 2016
    zenmaster
    Of course they do. The question is, is it worth it to them to attempt to compete in that market? I say probably not, because they can make more money elsewhere.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Chewy3
    The 0-60 for the base BMW M3 is a tad slower @ 4.1sec
    The base model comes with non metallic paint and a mostly cloth interior
    Adaptive cruise control and backup camera are NOT standard on the M3

    However, BMW's skid pad rating is much better than the Tesla Model S @~.89g vs the BMW m3 @ ~.98g (Depending which review stats you check)

    I'm fairly certain a PXXDL Model 3 will be less than $60k, otherwise it begins looses its economic advantage against BMW
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    P??DL will be more like $70k
    BMW always underestimates their 0-60 and power ratings.
    The most important advantage of TM3 is electric vs. ICE-priceless!
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  • May 28, 2016
    Alketi
    What does it cost to compete in the event that the performance/cost specs just fall out of the M3 design and Gigafactory price reductions?
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  • May 28, 2016
    Chewy3
    with out any other options - the price difference between a base S and a P90DL is around $39k right? (Just tried to checked the site but the pricing sidebar is absent)

    You really think Tesla will charge the same amount for the performance and battery options as the S on the 3? $35k+?

    Options + performance might hit the $70k mark, but I doubt it. Hopefully that's the ceiling.

    I would like to get the performance and a few options, but for the sake of this thread Max Performance vs Max options - I'd choose the options.
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  • May 28, 2016
    NoTDI
    MS base vs P90D + L is $48k so having $35k is reasonable
    For me P and L are not worthed. An upgraded battery and AWD with almost 300 mile range for about $10k is a great deal if we can get it for that price. For MS this upgrade is $18k.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Chewy3
    you are correct, my numbers were wrong. I still don't know if they will charge that much though

    Another consideration - the M3 gets better MPKw (is that the abbreviation now instead of MPG?) than the MS - so the upgraded batteries will not have to be as large an increase to reach the same ranges, and hopefully also more economical.
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  • May 28, 2016
    zenmaster
    Good question and not simple to answer because it's not just cost involved. There are many technological constraints currently that would have to be addressed. The 2016 BMW M3 sedan weighs 3600lbs. The performance specs for that market set a very high standard - braking, skidpad, top speed, acceleration, suspension all factor in to the overall package. That is, not just a 0-60 or 1/4mi time. In addition, sportscars are intended to be driven hard. However, current EVs, including Teslas, tend to overheat when driven hard.
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  • May 28, 2016
    juanmedina
    Tesla is not looking to match the BMW M3 0-60 or 1/4 of mile...... is going to destroy it.
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  • May 28, 2016
    2018 Steve
    Checked the second box since there was only two choices. I can be very happy with a 0-60 time of 6 seconds. Maybe a battery upgrade and air suspension along with a metal roof and possibly convenience autopilot. As Elon stated, the base Model 3 will be a very nice car.
    I would never buy a "fully optioned" vehicle. Tax credit would be nice but I am not planning on it.
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  • May 28, 2016
    182RG
    Don't think so. Base Model S RWD is $71,500. Ludicrous Model S is $119,500. That's a 67% increase assuming no options.

    First, a $35,000 Model 3 will never see the light of day. Ever. I just don't see it happening unless they offer vinyl seats, crank windows, and an AM radio.

    2 battery jumps, AWD, and a Ludicrous upgrade will be significantly higher than $19,000. Remember, accountants make and price cars. Engineers do not.

    We'll chat again in 2019 or so. I'll gladly eat crow if necessary. Will you?
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    Ok everyone... I'm embarrassed to admit that when I ran the numbers this morning I didn't notice I had dual motor checked on the base 70D, so yes there is a 48k dollar difference between the P90D with ludicrous mode and the BASE base model. SO... that is a 67% cost of the base price for the Model S, so we then take 67% and multiply it by 35,000... and get 23,496 dollars. Add those two together and AS FAR AS WE CAN GUESS at this point in time, ONE WOULD ASSUME that to get a Ludicrous Model 3 you would need to spend AT LEAST $58,496 dollars.

    THIS IS STILL nowhere near the 70k that some have been guessing, and if you waited in line you will possibly get the 7500 dollar tax credit, or the 6month follow up tax credit once that one expires of about $3,750 . That means it's quite possible you could have a BMW M3 DESTROYING Ludicrous model 3 for only around $51,000 to $54,750 !!! AND LET ME TELL YOU... I'm willing to wager that the L model 3 will have a SUB 2.8 second 0-60 time... you heard it here first folks. ALL THAT TO SAY... I realize now I should have simplified this thread to a simple - "Would you put more of your money into options or performance on your Model 3?"

    Oh well... live and learn. But I've really enjoyed the banter.
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  • May 28, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    Gladly. We'll wait to see who has to eat it to decide whether they cook it Sous Vide or the old fashioned way. ;)
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  • May 28, 2016
    zenmaster
    They need to work on many other things besides drag times if they want to compete with the M3. Won't be easy and I doubt they are interested.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Booga
    Either way, if you really want performance, go get a separate vehicle for that purpose and take the racing to a track. Anyone can punch the accelerator in a straight line - it doesn't take a man to do that. Public roads impose risk on others who aren't signing up for that risk. I hope I don't come off as too much of a prude, but once you spend time racing on a track in a dedicated racing environment, driving fast on the street loses most of its appeal. There's always some adrenaline, but it's not worth it. The ability to use anything more than what comes in the base Model 3 will be limited in opportunity anyway. Most "real" racers I know drive cars with the idea of utility (hauling their karts or track cars, kids, etc.) rather than trying to beat someone from a stop light.

    I'm hoping to more comfort and range upgrades myself. In fact, I'd be happy with slightly less powerful motors if Elon provides an option. Either 6 second RWD or 7 second AWD, same price? I'd take that 7 second AWD in a heart beat. In reality, I'm likely going to have to pay a pretty penny to get the AWD, because I'm guessing it'll have the same rear motor but an additional front motor.

    My only point? Save your Ludicrous mode money for a real track kart or car where you can learn to race. A Tesla is not the platform on which to learn to race.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Topher
    What are they going to do when people configure their car that way? Refuse to sell it to them? That's just crazy.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • May 28, 2016
    mzairboy
    At this point I would give up options to fund performance. However all this is based on speculation, we know very little about the final version, specs, and pricing of the M3. Maybe there will be some unknown cool options that I would rather have, but right now my sights are set on ludicrous.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Topher
    I have no idea why you think that smart fuses are cheaper when you put them in a cheaper car. There are probably some things which can be cheaper, perhaps the upgraded battery is actually fewer batteries, but that certainly doesn't work for all those parts.

    Adding $48,000 to $35,000 gives $83,000 which is probably a bit too high, but how much? Tesla needs to make a high volume, low priced car. They don't need to make the Ludicrous version cheap in order to do that, in fact, it works against that goal. I don't think one should ever bet on Tesla working against that goal.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • May 28, 2016
    juanmedina
    I agree they are not interested and the majority of the people is not interested. Only a few people go to the road course and the majority people only care about 0-60 times...

    Hopefully the M3 PXXL will have a sub 3 second 0-60mph... If the can get 90kw out the batteries, I don't see why not
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  • May 28, 2016
    Topher
    The majority of people couldn't care less about 0-60 times. Personally, I have accelerated at full throttle from 0-60 once in my entire life. And that was to save my entire life.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I still want to beat everyone off the line. I'm not trying to get to a finish line....I just want to beat folks off the line. I'm in Chicago...I don't think I will pose any threat to you.

    If Tesla sells it to me....I'm going to buy it. sorry.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Tesla is going to sell ludicrous. Its amazing to me how many people are trying to talk folks out of buying it. This is hilarious.

    All I can say is....I'm ordering fully optioned ludicrous. it. You will NEVER be able to talk me out of it.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
  • May 28, 2016
    zenmaster
    Uh oh, time for another poll!
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    lol
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  • May 28, 2016
    plankeye
    I guess I'm the only one that needs an option for just "bare bones." :( At 35K, the base M3 will still blow away (in every way) every other EV on the market.
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  • May 28, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    There are probably thousands that would like "bare bones". They just don't seem to be a part of this forum.
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  • May 28, 2016
    alseTrick
    I'd rather buy the base $35,000 model than either of the two options in the poll.
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  • May 28, 2016
    EXOTIC1

    I'm much more concerned with 1/4 mile time than a stop light run or 0-60 times:)
    i'm hoping to see low 12's or better
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  • May 29, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    12's? hmmmm
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  • May 29, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    Ok Topher... you're missing a big point sir... the cost of upgrading to the P90D is NOT about the fuze, it's all about the size of the battery... and number of cells therein. JB Straubel and Musk have already discussed on the earnings calls that the 3 could quite possibly have much less than a 60kw battery (the base model) so when upgrading to ludicrous on the 3 you are paying for a lot less battery if say the max size was a 60kw battery (up 20kw from a 40kw base(remember, the S had a 40kw battery that could almost do 200 miles), like the 90D is 20kw bigger than the 70). It is also a smaller car, so takes less battery to move it. Elons biggest goal with the Gigafactory and with building the Model 3 is to drive down the COST of the battery and cell production, so before you say that a model 3 will cost that much, please consider that the 60kw battery with an upgraded fuse could very possibly cost $58,000.
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  • May 29, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    you will
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  • May 29, 2016
    zenmaster
    It would be stupid for Tesla to produce a "Ludicrous" Model 3 that didn't hit 11's.
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  • May 29, 2016
    Dan Detweiler
    Just give me autopilot and the most range I can get. Everything else is secondary for me. Projectile vomiting every time I put my right foot to the floor is entirely unnecessary. I will be very happy with just feeling somewhat nauseous thank you very much. ;)

    Dan
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  • May 29, 2016
    Sharkbait
    All the performance stuff, including 'L', and nicely optioned out (but not fully), I'm thinking $77,050 before taxes, credits and the friendly folks down at the DMV office. Then you get to settle up with your insurance agent. Most important, don't drive home if you haven't got all your electrical infrastructure sorted and tested.
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  • May 29, 2016
    Chopr147
    Probably more will do the same once they have to actually shell out the cash
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  • May 29, 2016
    aronth5
    I could care less about Ludicrous Mode. There are more important options then going faster.
    I've never understood the fascination with obscene speed over function.
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  • May 29, 2016
    JeffK
    I'm in it for the torque!
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  • May 29, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Why do you think Tesla sells the Ludicrous Mode?

    We aren't even talking about the Insane Mode.

    Just wondering why you think Tesla sells it.
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  • May 29, 2016
    zenmaster
    People enjoy the visceral thrill that some car features like handling and acceleration provide. Also people's driving ability often exceeds what a car can offer. A more capable car is "better" than a less capable car simply because limitations that the customer is aware of will always be considered constraining. In some circumstances having a certain amount of acceleration on tap can be considered a safety feature.
    Some people may throw up at a certain speed which others can easily manage.
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  • May 31, 2016
    ModelNforNerd
    The car portion of my commute is only 8 miles round trip now.

    I'm kinda torn on where I should put my money.

    When the configurator comes out, I'll just start checking boxes and see what makes the most sense.
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  • May 31, 2016
    Topher
    I understand that fine. but the P90D does NOT have ludicrous mode. Ludicrous is a separate option, with upgraded fuses, and a $10,000 price tag, above and beyond P90D price, and it includes NO batteries.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • May 31, 2016
    Topher
    I don't want you posing a threat to my friends in Chicago either.

    Thank you kindly
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  • May 31, 2016
    MiamiNole
    I can't help but wonder what it was that required you to go full throttle from 0-60 to save your life? Did someone have a hit out on you? Or were you escaping from an exploding building Hollywood-style? :)
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  • May 31, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    there are some antiquated on/off-ramp layouts in New England where that would come in useful.

    But likely not where Topher is.

    You're welcome kindly.
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  • May 31, 2016
    JeffK
    It would come in very useful for the people in front of me taking 10 seconds to accelerate to 20mph from a stoplight in a 40mph zone..... It'd help too if their car could recognize a speed limit because the driver is sure clueless. That or the driver is trying to save gas... sigh. :mad:

    I'd have much less road rage on a two lane street, it might very well save their life.
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  • May 31, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    In my area, there are 2 highway-related things that get to me...

    1. if your exit isn't for another mile, you DO NOT have to slow down to 45 and get into the slow lane, thus impeding those of us getting on to the highway.

    2. if the on/off-ramp is shared, you should also probably not slam on the brakes and swerve across 3 lanes of traffic to get to your exit in time.

    everyone's always doing things to extremes around here. lol
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  • May 31, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Full Throttle is a cure for depression. It will paint a smile on your face.
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  • May 31, 2016
    crackers8199
    i can't see them bundling like that, they'd be throwing away money from people like me who want AWD and the bigger battery plus AP, sunroof and HiFi. under your configuration, i can't get that because i'm not paying an extra $10k for luxury fast and other options i don't want or need (paint, leather, wheels, etc)...i'm sure they'd rather have my $5k for AP/sunroof/hiFi than $0 if they bundle it the way you're thinking).

    also, since AP hardware is standard on all cars there's no need for them to bundle AP. it's a software upgrade that costs them nothing to turn on...
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  • May 31, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    We will know soon enough.
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  • May 31, 2016
    crackers8199
    FWIW, i'm not saying they won't bundle at all...just that i think the bundles (if they do so) will be smaller and less expensive to try to get extra money out of people like me. for example, i can see sunroof and hiFi being bundled together if they're staying with the same premise as the S, where you have to have the sunroof to get XM capability...

    if they start bundling all kinds of stuff together, you lose part of what makes them tesla (allowing people to fully customize whatever they want in the car)...
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  • May 31, 2016
    WileyTheMan
    My priorities are not speed, but it's definitely in the top 3 desired features. Range (which assumes AWD), comfort (which includes the ability to install three child seats in the back) and then speed. I know it'll be a tight fit back there, but they do have kid seats that are designed that way.
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  • May 31, 2016
    McHoffa
    I am just really hoping I can get a 3 with PXXD, autopilot, premium paint, supercharging and vegan white interior for <$65k. If ludicrous isn't much more than that, I might even push it and go for that.
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  • May 31, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Absolutely. I'm going for all of that....and then some. I've saved the base price already. If it's $30k for the rest...then I'm in. $70 might be my exit price though.
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  • May 31, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    There is only one scenario where this makes sense... Topher MUST be Vin Diesel... he's referring to the moment when he had to race Paul Walker (may he RIP) and an oncoming train. Vin, you've been outed. Thank you kindly for all the wonderful movies.
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  • May 31, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    By the way, I was at my local grocery and parked close to the entrance (my model 3 sticker was visible) and when I came out someone had parked a few spots away in a honda hybrid with a license plate that said "Tesla 3" ... I underestimated the competition in my hometown!
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  • May 31, 2016
    McHoffa
    I'm pretty certain I will be the first in my county, and possibly my region of NC, with a Model 3. It's possible a current owner stood in line behind me a ways that would get one before me though.
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  • May 31, 2016
    alseTrick
    What on earth?

    They won't.

    Debundling would make more sense than hyperbundling like that.
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  • May 31, 2016
    alseTrick
    There many Teslas in Dayton?
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  • Jun 1, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    A lot now. There are 2 stores, several supercharger stations, and service center or two all within about an hour of Dayton
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