May 30, 2015
Magus Wow, a few of the comments are quite amazing. Am coming from the standpoint that I can afford a 75-80ish car, but with somewhat greater financial prudence that an 85D with similar features is out of my price range. Some of the comparisons basically amount to my phallus is bigger than yours. A few times these discussions go beyond neutral facts in helping someone decide how to go on things. If someone does more road tripping, then of course the 85D makes more sense. If someone has more than adequate money it makes sense to do so. To differentiate the 70D as a city car and the 85D as a road tripping car is a ludicrous comparison when the average supercharger is maybe 100 miles apart.
For $10,000:
-one can take 20 $500 flights
-rent a gas car for a trip, come out far cheaper, and make the trip in significantly shorter time than any 85D could dream of
-at least a couple of international trips
-many accessories and features
One person commented how the 70D now would be comparable to the model 3. Buddy, when the model 3 is out, well presumably have ranges well over 300 miles. With those next gen batteries, Teslas will be increasingly more capable. The new low end Model S? Unless you have money to burn tens of thousands on depreciation, I would hate to feel your ego.
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For $10k, I could have 28 towings - for running out of range on the 70D vs the 85D on trips. Except, you know, you would have to work at making it happen. It would take a very long time for any reasonable person to ever reach that figure�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina I typed a longer reply, but here is the short version - people in general are nice. Don't be so sensitive.
Now back to technicals..
First of all, As far as Model 3 being = to Model S, I disagree. An old 7 series BMW is not the same as a new 3 series, is it?
Secondly, Superchargers are frequently greater than 100 miles apart, as much as even 250 miles.
And if your trip is Home (A), SC1 (B), SC2 (C), SC3 (D), and Destination (E) . then D to E .. cannot be > 100 miles, if you have only 250 miles of juice in the tank (assuming 50 miles spare to zip around town and cushion).
70D won't cut it in that circumstance I feel. 85D will. Also, the supplemental network (plugshare/chargepoint/blink/destination charging) etc. are not reliable or fast enough.
10K is a lot of money. I agree. I first ordered 85D, then changed to 70D, and after some interaction and education from people smarter than me here, I've finally settled on 85D.
I don't like blowing 10K for no reason, but I felt I'd get more out of my Model S for the extra 10K. So I did it.
I hope I didn't come across as show offy, I'm sorry if I did. I really am. Do private message me so I can improve, I'd appreciate it very much.�
May 30, 2015
eye.surgeon Magus, your financial analysis has a glaring flaw. You need to look at cost of ownership, not purchase price. Much of the premium for the bigger battery will be recovered when sold.�
May 30, 2015
travwill Perhaps true as well. But you do have to notice that even with the CPOs it seems the highest in P85s depreciate the most/way more than standard 85s, 85s somewhat less, and 60s have depreciated the least at this point in most of the CPO cars I've seen online. That's a good thing as they all tend to do pretty well, except maybe the P85 losing so much value so quick - but super high end cars all do that as well or worse (e.g. Aston Martin, BMW 7, etc.).�
May 30, 2015
Magus Kutta, actually it wasn't directed at your posts.
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eye.surgeon, I wouldn't call my post a financial analysis.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina I really need to stop raising my hands involuntarily everytime I see a cop. :-/�
May 30, 2015
Magus Hehe. Ok so I admit that using the word classist is overly dramatic. Never thought there would be consternation over getting an $80ish car. A new 85D is simply out of financial reach. I could technically do it, but financially would not be smart. It wasn't for finances, it would be 85D for sure. On the other hand, 60 owners seem to be happy with their cars abd the range works for them from what I've read.
Gah can't seem to be able to remove classist from the title.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina 70D = 85D .. if you're never going to leave town or use the acceleration, is the best way to put it.�
May 30, 2015
Max* OP, you're my hero.
P.S. I've said from day one that for $10k, I'll take my wife's gas SUV on road trips, assuming I need those extra 30 miles and still come out way ahead.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Travwill, what wh/mi are you getting in your 70D?
What is your driving style? (leadfoot, hills?)�
May 30, 2015
AMPd Are you saying the extra 30 miles prevents an out of town road trip?
Theres a thread that shows the 70D having 240 miles fully charged, that's plenty of range to leave town (in parts of the country with SpC)�
May 30, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel For those who say i can use the saved money to buy airplane tickets or get towed or use the ice suv to go on road trip. I ask you then why get a tesla? It doesnt seem like you like to use it that much.
You rather fly--- ok if you really get board of road trips then sure. I am sure for some situtation i would use the plane.
You would drive your ICE SUV--- so you dont like using the tesla for road trip? If this is your goal might as well go for the S60 CPO. Save more money. And seriously are you going to still keep that ICE around if you have the tesla?
You would get towed on road trips--- ummm what a waste of time and money. I hate to be stranded just so i can used the money i save from not buying the 85D and getting the 70D.
I am not saying you shouldnt get a 70D, but you have to take into consideration what you give up. IMO, it is a lot and especially when the tesla is meant to replace my ICE, that extra range can and does wonders and is well worth the $10K. If the 70D was a 75D at the same price then maybe it might not be worth the upgrade to the 85D, but a 15KWh hit is significant enough anyway you see it.�
May 30, 2015
travwill Lets end this thread - it is turning out to be ridiculous and a waste at this point. To each his/her own. The 70d is great, the 85d is great, etc. Just depends on what you need really. I think I've driven 99% of the least 10 years here in Chicago within the city, burbs within 50/60 miles, at most have done 100 miles then 100 back, and would be fine with either car. The 70 is what drew me in as seemed like great range for the price. The price is still high though, with tax my 70d is 100K. I don't consider myself skimping out on the 85, just getting a car that is going to meet 100% of my needs I'd say, also knowing that I'll probably want a new Tesla with whatever improvements come in 3+ years or so.
�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Okay No2DinoFuel pointed me to this, and I did a huge amount of research.
The summary is this,
70D is better and more efficient in-town, 85D is more efficient on highways.
EPA ranges reflect mostly in town driving.
Highway driving is where you NEED range, within city you are always around chargers anyway.
If highway driving is what you desire, the real range difference will be around 40 miles (Tesla says 30mi, but thats EPA, in town, No2dinofuel says 50mi which is a bit high IMO, lets split the difference - 40).
So yes, if long drives is your "requirement", then 85D is almost a necessity.
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And thats another way to look at it.
If in town is your main requirement, and you are okay with taking an alternate means for long distance - then 85D is not worth it.
This guy for instance is quite depressed that he went for the $10K over the 70D.
To each their own I say.�
May 30, 2015
Magus Was being facetious about having extra money for towing.
The charge point chargers show active, inactive vs occupied status on he app, so I'm not sure I would worry all that much about being in a likely occasional or rare pinch.
Road tripping can be fun, but no time to do road tripping. Regardless the 70D is a capable road tripping car - especially as superchargers and other chargers advance.
My my local Tesla rep was talking about planning an S60 trip cross country. They actually made it just fine. There was a supercharger gap that the 85D couldn't overcome. You would add time vs a 60 of course, but any ICE car would blow the doors off the time vs both the 85 and 60.
The 70D is capable of road trips and isn't a town car- especially when you can take a 60 cross country.
The highway range of the 70D is actually 244-245. There is a document somewhere with that figure. Having an 85D isn't a necessity for most people. Saying the 70D is a town car is patently false. I would be getting a Leaf if the 70 was a town car.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Travwill, we can end this thread once you tell us your WH/Mi. c'mon spill the beans buddy
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<-- Not reliable�
May 30, 2015
Max* The question was never about which car is better. The question for a lot of people is if the better car is worth $10k more. It's that simple, and each person will have their own answer/circumstances.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina I hope Elon Musk is reading this thread, and comes to the obvious conclusion that KuttaKamina is an awesome guy and will be a great ambassador for Tesla.
And decides to give me a free P85D out of sheer decency and respect, which I would of course graciously accept.
That'd be an awesome car I think. Best car for my circumstances!
So ........ travwill, are you gonna make us beg for your wh/mi?�
May 30, 2015
Max* Since you obviously directed this at me.I honestly don't know if I'm going to like taking the EV on roadtrips. With little kids, the goal is to get door to door ASAP.
Why not get a CPO? I want AWD and TACC.
And yes, we're keeping the SUV, there are two adults, and soon we'll have two 7-person vehicles.
Happy?�
May 30, 2015
Canuck No one has mentioned the likely reason the 60 is gone. We know from the research that the lower state of charge that you keep a lithium battery (but not empty), the lower it will degrade. In fact, if you keep it at a low state of charge, and low temperature, it will degrade very little, even after many years. Plus, we know that higher states of charge, and higher cycles of charge, are bad for degradation. With a 60 you needed to keep it charged higher, and cycle it more, unless you're not doing a lot of driving. So the 70 makes more more sense when it comes to years down the road and that may be one of the reasons that the 60 is gone for good. Tesla may be thinking long term and not wanting a bunch of low range cars out there after accounting for battery degradation. Upping it just a bit perhaps does wonders for preventing degradation, after looking at the research much of which is relatively new. So when comparing a 70 to an 85, the 85 allows for a lower state of charge, and less cycling, making it a much better choice in the long term, especially if you plan to keep your car for many years. Plus, it's a lot quicker at Superchargers since you can pour electrons in much faster because you don't need to taper as soon as you do with a 70. Remember, folks, these batteries degrade. While you may save $10k now, new batteries are not cheap, and I doubt they will be even after the gigafactory starts producing.�
May 30, 2015
S4WRXTTCS When it really comes down to it, most of it comes down to personal preferences and what we're looking for.
The 85D wasn't the right choice for me because it didn't handle any better than the 70D. It also didn't brake any better than the 70D. Neither of those systems were upgraded. They are upgraded on the P85D (Edit - For the brakes at least this is incorrect. For the suspension it's unclear). Both of those systems are important to me, and I wouldn't mind spending extra money for them. I just wasn't willing to spend $25K (or whatever it is now) to get them.
When it comes to cars I strongly believe that all the systems should be balanced with one another. If it can go faster it should stop faster, and it should be able to handle cornering better.
What the 85D offered was a little more power, a little more range, and faster charging (when viewed from a miles/hour perspective).
Those are all important things and shouldn't be overlooked.
It's a great option for road-trippers, and people with families (where time might be more valuable). Will it give a better resale? Who knows? I didn't see any evidence using the Tesla Resale guarantee which I view as a worst case scenario. I know with the 70D that I am protected by that. The sad fact about these cars is we're going to be killed on resale. Partly because of incentives (the tax rebate), but also the rapid movement of technology. It's what we get for jumping so soon into the next gen. You already see it with people trading in barely used P85's for P85D's where the people getting the CPO cars are getting awesome deals. In some ways it's working just like it should to get people over to electric cars.
For myself I used the $10K savings for other things. Like after the I bought the car I bought a fancy toilet so now I don't have to wipe my butt. I got the Next Gen seats so my butt can be nicely secure and treated just right.
So in addition to gas I won't have to buy toilet paper either.
The trade off is I know it's going to take me probably one more sec to go from 30-70, and I might have to stay just a bit longer at a supercharger.
But, hey with the $10K I saved I paid off my E-Bike, paid off my Marble Electric Longboard, and bought that ridiculous toilet.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Did you think nextgen seats were worth it? ($750 extra)
Is XPel worth it? ($1500-$2k extra)
Is the service plan worth it? ($1900 more)
I like how you think! No TP, no gas! Ultra green! You're my hero!
@Canuck - yes charge cycles do matter. But if your usage is strictly in town (< 100 mi from home), 70D will probably be OK.�
May 30, 2015
Max* It's ironic that you're willing to spend $10k on a larger battery, and at the same time waste hours supercharging it to save on electricity costs.
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Did you try the next gen seats?
I was eh to them, and my wife didn't like them. I think it's a reasonable cost, though.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Yes I sat in both of them.
I like the "hug feel" the next gen seats give, and I think they look cooler.
But there were some downsides,
a) I think they will be uncomfortable in hot weather (I'm getting black with pano roof)
b) I think on long drives the old gen seats will be comfier (more room to move around, easy in/out of the car, arm rest accessible)
c) The older seats have a tiny pocket in the front, perfect for storing chargepoint cards, grocery stores, office access card etc. The next gen seats dont have that pocket. Given how starved the interiors are on keeping space, I think every bit matters.
d) AND, you could get these seat covers (wet okole), which add more keeping space behind your seat for the older seats. I couldn't find anything for next gen. These seat covers are 350 bucks btw.�
May 30, 2015
S4WRXTTCS What I think is most interesting about the 60 was they introduced a 60D along with the 85D, but never made any. But, within two months they suddenly came out with the 70D. So it makes me wonder what happened. Why did they introduce it only not to make any? they claim there wasn't any demand (which is true), but shouldn't they have known that before announcing it?
What you said about batteries is true, but only if you're assuming the person is going to be driving a 60 as much as they would an 85. If driven the same percentage amount they will have roughly equal degradation. The warranty on the battery pack for the 70D is the same unlimited mile warranty the 85D because Tesla knows their batteries are solid. If you wanted to drive the doors off the thing within 8 years the 70D would be a better value because Tesla has you covered.
When I got the 70D I didn't worry about battery degradation. Sure I had reasons for concern about a whole host of things, but there has been much in the way of complaints about battery degradation (aside from cars with technical issues). If I was going to keep my car my primary concern would be the reliability of the drive electronics. In 8 years the battery cost is going to be considerably lower. but, what about the motor/inverter and everything else?
So far is has been a hellishly expensive car for those unfortunate to have it outside of warranty.
If Armageddon happened your Nissan leaf would be dragging around (and being powered) via the battery from your Tesla.
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For me the nextgen seats were very worth it. I'm with all the others who think the default seats are embarrassing. But, I'm an Audi/Porsche kind of guy.
I don't mind the seats in my Jeep because it's a JEEP.
I'm still debating the Xpel. I have no idea. The issue is it's great for me, and will likely save me lots of bad nights (rocks hitting the car makes for a sad man). But, I know I won't be given anything from Tesla for them. Maybe I'm mistaken and maybe it will pay off. Who knows. I got the HPWC, the Chademo adapter, and the center console and my wallet is tired. I just don't want to spend anymore money.
As to the service plan if I was going to keep the car long term I'd get the service plan. So far the average Tesla owner takes their car in for service way more than once a year for issues with it. So I'm sure I'll have some reason for being there other than the service plan where they can do whatever TSB is needed.
I'll still have it serviced. My goal is once on the second year.
That's $600 I can live with.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina Same here :-/ .. I'm even thinking of skipping xpel and just washing it 2x a month and and waxing it 1x a month.�
May 30, 2015
Footer I have Coco washlets in all my bathrooms and it takes forever to dry. I don't have the patience to wait so I use a little toilet paper. I guess that's the difference between S85 and S70D mentality. :smile:�
May 30, 2015
travwill ha - currently it is 0 wh / 0 mi. my build & delivery is taking forever!�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina By that definition, an ICE would be skipping wiping at all!
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Perpetual motion machine�
May 30, 2015
S4WRXTTCS Ha, I actually do use a little bit of toilet paper because of the whole drying thing. It takes too damn long. But, it certainly has cut down my TP use easily by 80-90%.
Just like the Tesla MS will cut down my gas use by around 90%. I'll still use my Jeep occasionally for what it's meant for.�
May 30, 2015
kuttakamina ^^
Go on, tell us more! We don't mind.
Anyway, saw this, Introducing the All-Wheel Drive Model S 70D | Tesla Motors, apparently Tesla claims the 70D will get 250 miles at 65mph.
That is NOT bad.�
May 30, 2015
A.G. I really don't think that the 70D is a city car. People like Kman Auto have done plenty of road trips in their 60's, and the 70 has even more. Also, by next year we should have superchargers basically everywhere, so the 70D will be an even better option. We got an 85D, but if the 70D was an option when we bought, we would have gotten that. Still love our car though.�
May 30, 2015
S4WRXTTCS Haha, the funny thing is it's fairly easy to tell people the positives and minuses of the electric cars. It's easy to tell them all the virtues of it, and why it's the future (at least the electrical part)
You can tell them exactly what excites you about the Tesla, and the experience.
But, with a Smart Toilet? It's mostly "just trust me" because it's all TMI or unpleasant conversations. People are so wrapped up in the old way of doing things (at least in the US) that they can't see why it's the future. Mine isn't nearly as advanced as I'd like it to be (it has no medical related functions like some of the really fancy Japanese ones do), but the functionality it does have has saved me from unpleasantness more than a few times a month. I did as well as I could explaining why it was so awesome on the off topic section of this Forum.
So a dude walks into Lowes, and comes out green
As to the 70D actually going 250 miles at 65MPH. Ha, I'll believe it when I see it. I can't wait to see what the real world range people get with the 70D. With the 85 I knew anything within 200 miles would be pretty easy. With the 60 I accepted that 150 was the most I would ever want to do with it (if I had ultimately got it). You always want some amount of buffer.
With the 70D I imagine it's around the 175 to 180 miles before you seriously have to stop for charging.�
May 30, 2015
Yggdrasill Personally I don't see the 10k USD as worth it. It was worth it back when the difference was 25 kWh, and you also got unlimited mileage on the battery warranty when upgrading, but now the difference is 15 kWh, and the improved warranty is included.
I take a longer trip maybe once every 3-6 months. On most of these I would need to supercharge 1-2 times, regardless of whether I would be driving an 85D or a 70D. Maybe once every 3-5 years I'll take a longer road trip, but on my road trips there's no need to stress. If I need to spend 30 minutes extra per day supercharging, that's no issue.�
May 31, 2015
kuttakamina You also have to consider that people on the west coast tend to take longer trips all the time.
Not so on the east coast. If I go to New York or Boston from DC, I would rather NOT drive there.
West coast, SF to LA - hands down, driving is better. Many many reasons for it,
- Our public transport isn't great, but theirs is non-existent
- There are simply more fun things to do in california/oregon/washington/arizona/new mexico/nevada etc.
- Traffic moves much faster on the west coast (75/85mph vs 55mph).
- The drive is far nicer .. there you have redwoods, tahoe, beautiful mountains, beaches, here we have BALTIMORE.
- To add to the insult, we have to pay tolls as we enjoy the view (and smells) of Baltimorons.
- Their roads are better too, far better. Here our roads especially in the winters are like what you use in Norway to test military vehicles. Here on the east coast, even with an ICE, I wouldn't dare take a long trip when things are snowed in.
So people from the west coast are rather unsurprisingly bigtime range monkeys.�
May 31, 2015
Zythryn Everyone is different, and perhaps some people don't place the same value on $10k as others.
To me, the 70D is far, FAR more attractive a base model than the 60 it replaced.
And I do think the 70D is a great road trip car.
Roadster owners have been taking road trips with that range and without any SuperChargers for years.
Is the 80D a better road trip car? Of course, but $10k better? IMO, no.
Value is literally in the eye of the beholder. Everyone should keep that in mind, and should be thrilled with their 60, 85, P85, 70D ,85D or P85D. All are members of a wonderful family of cars!�
May 31, 2015
chriSharek I couldn't disagree with this OP more.
The 85D (not the P85D, which is classist) is the perfect balance between range, performance, and cost. I'm completely with Kutta on this.�
May 31, 2015
TexasEV I have a 60 and there isn't any road trip I can't take that I could take in a 85. It's a little less convenient but not $10,000 less convenient unless you're doing it all the time. There's even less of a difference between 70D and 85D. Leafs and i3s are city cars, not Tesla 70Ds!�
May 31, 2015
Magus If I had significantly greater income I would of course get an 85D. However the 70D fits the bill for affordability and my needs. It is very capable in the supercharger areas with no sacrifice. However in areas not so well covered, or in very adverse weather the scales tip to 85D.
What Tesla can't help is that at this time functionality is built into the cost of the vehicle. Any other luxury car you generally aren't comparing function, but other a lot of other factors. What bothers me is the phallus comparison. 40 miles bonus is significant. However, calling the 70D incapable of road tripping is patently false.
What also bothers me as well as that these comparisons are also a bit ludicrous when you bring hybrid or ICE vehicles into the picture. Coming from a Prius, using a next gen Prius for a road trip is no problem. In terms time and range, well there is no comparison.
If I want to go from NY to Key West, I could do so in a 70D or an 85D. Yes, better in the 85D but both would be capable. However, if I rent a Ford Fusion Hybrid I could do it with the money saved, and it would save me a lot of time vs any 85,70, or 60. Having a hybrid, the electric is better but I'm not cognitively focused on the ICE engine.
Regardless, I would never have the time to take even a hybrid that distance. 85D customized is not affordable, 70D is still very capable in SC areas, have plenty of other travel options, and a little extra money for other things.
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Also, I already called my "classist" comparison overly dramatic.�
May 31, 2015
travwill Maybe we need a new term, "Modelist" vs Classist ;-)�
May 31, 2015
breser Seat covers are a bad idea. They compromise the effectiveness of the airbags in the seats.
I'm not aware of any brake upgrades on the P85D.
As to the OP's comment. Just buy what you want. When I bought my 85D long before the 70D existed everyone was saying you should get the P85D. Those tunes have largely changed because there are clear tradeoffs now.�
May 31, 2015
Max* OP, it's also ironic that the two loudest proponents of the 85D don't even own one yet and haven't actually test driven one.�
May 31, 2015
Bonlaw We took our 60 everywhere including trips. Comparing to 85 for same trip we would have made the same supercharger stops. Only difference is a few minutes at each stop. After two years decided to buy a new Tesla to get all of the safety software( I didn't have even parking sensors). When we placed our order we again ordered a 60 because it totally met our needs. 6 days later Tesla announced the 70D. For that reason only I switched. So for those who are considering the smaller battery, fear not.�
May 31, 2015
chriSharek AWESOME point! Love it! The P85D in sport mode (not insane) is supposed to be a fair representative of the 85D - so I've been told.
My wife is 40 - approaching "that time" in her life. In our Volt now, the air is on, then off, the heated seat is on, then off. I want the extra battery so she can be as cold or hot as she wants! And this directly affects range, so hence the 85D for me.�
May 31, 2015
Max* I sense sarcasm...
And I think it's great that Tesla is offering various batteries. It gives options to people. If there was no 70D, would I orderIan 85D? 100%.�
May 31, 2015
chriSharek No sarcasm Max. You are absolutely right. I haven't driven the 85D. But, selected it because the balance between range, performance, and cost!�
May 31, 2015
S4WRXTTCS Duh, The calipers are red so OBVIOUSLY they're better brakes.
Everyone knows red is better.
All joking aside Tesla isn't very clear at all about what's upgraded on the P85D.
There is no information on whether the brakes are any better of if the suspension is any better.
I say the suspension is better because we know the P85D was the replacement of the P85+ which offered better suspension. But, there isn't anything from Tesla that backs that up. It's not on the ordering page, and it's not on their spec page.
Just like I can't find anything from Tesla that backs up my statement that the brakes are better. I thought the brakes were better because of reviews I read. Like reviews like this one.
2015 Tesla Model S 70D Instrumented Test Car and Driver
But, when I went looking further it seems like the brakes are EXACTLY the same. The differences in stopping power on the reviews was most likely just differences in tires.�
May 31, 2015
breser At one point the website said there were suspension improvements on the P85D, though it's not there now. To my knowledge Tesla has never advertised brake improvements on any model (asthetics withstanding).
My bet would be that the AWD vehicles all have the same suspension setup. They removed the suspension wording from the website when the only car that didn't have the upgraded suspension was the S85. I have my 85D and I've had a P85D as a loaner for a day. I didn't notice any significant suspension differences from driving the car. I can't say for sure their aren't. But I'm skeptical given Tesla's efforts to reduce the number of configurations, the removal of advertising this difference and my driving experience.�
May 31, 2015
TexasEV Actually the seat heaters and air conditioning have little impact on range. It's the heater that kills range (that's why the seat heaters are useful) but I doubt you would need heat much in Florida.�
May 31, 2015
chriSharek That has NOT been the case for my Volt. The AC takes about 10% of the range. Again, I don't own an MS yet, but I've got to believe it's similar - the simulator in the store certainly reduced the range.
Regardless, I'm not worried. I ordered the 85D.�
May 31, 2015
!S4 If I spent more on a 70D with options than someone with a base 85D, should I look down on them?
Honestly it really doesn't matter. I buy based on value. There were options that had value to me, but the "30 miles of range and .6 seconds faster 0-60" option didn't have $10k of value to me. I almost changed my order several times, but at the end I couldn't justify it, regardless of whether or not I could afford it.
For range there are no trips that I'd take that would require less supercharger visits in 85D vs. the 70D. Sure, a little longer wait, but I'm hanging out anyways right? Otherwise I'm getting on a plane if I'm in that big of a hurry. If I'm really going to push range and need to drive I'll take my wife's diesel.
For acceleration I currently have a "quick" car and rarely get to fully enjoy it so I've learned that in urban areas pretty quick vs. really quick will make zero difference to me. The 70D is pretty quick. If you think it's slow then you're probably used to 500HP+ ICE cars or you're basing too much comparing numbers.
Hey, if I'm wrong, in a few years I can always trade in, right?�
May 31, 2015
chriSharek Yes. You are right. You can trade in the 70D when the Model 3 has the same range and probably close to the same performance.
And Yes, you can look down on someone who ordered a base 85D. There are some features I agree with you that are essential - autopilot being one of them.
I just ordered the 85D because it was within the budget my wife/CFO provided to me - and we got it loaded. She doesn't want a single compromise - A/C, heat, range, performance. The 85D fit that bill.�
May 31, 2015
!S4 ChriSharek, I was responding to OP, not you necessarily.
My point being that everyone makes their own decisions based on value and it has no indication of "class" at all. You're good with your decision, I'm happy with mine. Why can't we all just get along?
Judging people based on the model of car they bought makes as much sense as judging them by the size of their house.
In reality we've all bought or are looking at cars that 90+% of the population could only dream of affording.�
May 31, 2015
breser I judge people based on the cars they're driving all the time. Everytime I see a new Porsche, Lexus, Mercedes, Maserati etc I comment "You bought the wrong car."�
Jun 1, 2015
chriSharek Breser, I feel the SAME WAY! Why in the hell would someone spend $100k on a BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, get 20 MPG, and NOT have the performance of MS?! Doesn't make any sense to me at all . . .�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 I've had my P85 for over 2 years now and I'm at 70k miles. There have been countless occasions where I have gone below 30. That extra 30 mile buffer for me is critical to whether or not I make it to my destination or leaving me stranded.�
Jun 1, 2015
chriSharek And if I EVER have to tell my wife that we need to turn the A/C off so we can get home or to a charger, she would KILL me! That extra 30 miles will most definitely come in handy for that!
(Sadly enough, I have done that on occasion in the Volt to prevent using gas)�
Jun 1, 2015
Thud That's purely anecdotal, of course.
One thing that's changed over the past 2 years is that there are a LOT more Supercharger stations now, and more going up all the time.
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Right now I wouldn't blame somebody for skipping Autopilot, because it can be enabled after delivery with only a small price difference ($500) over getting it at the factory.
Many of us (me included) ponied up the extra $$$ for autopilot on the promise of what it is expected to deliver in the future. In my case, it was part of the tech package anyway. But so far we haven't gotten everything we've paid for. Right now your $2500 only gets you TACC and automatic headlights. Those features alone aren't worth $2500.
Once the updates come out, and the car has auto parking and steering, then you can pay the $3000 to get the whole package if you decide it's worth it.�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* Two things to think about going this approach
+It's actually less than a $500 difference. You're paying sales tax on the $2500, but you're not paying sales tax on the $3,000 (someone pointed this out in another thread).
-Right now, with just TACC/highbeams it's $2.5k or $3k to activate it. Based on Tesla's historic price increases (for the most part), when the "true" highway autopilot features come out, they may bump the price of the package to post-delivery $3.5k or $4k activation cost.�
Jun 1, 2015
jtpassat good points regarding the sales tax and the possible price hike. guess it all depends on what you can do with that 2.5k while you wait for the real autopilot features come out.
�
Jun 1, 2015
AMPd There aren't any superchargers along your route?
I was specifically talking about a road trip, out of town. If you have superchargers along your route the 30 miles aren't that critical, sure you'll wait longer to charge and might need to slow down but it's not like you can't take a trip at all.
Im not trying to defend my 70D purchase, not that I need to, it fits my needs perfectly including road trips. I did not feel like the extra range was worth it. And yes I did take into consideration the battery degradation and I'm not worried as I will be upgrading to a p85d in the near future, this is sort of my starter tesla, I want to see if an electric car fits my lifestyle.
I've done the range calculations to every destination I visit, and I have superchargers along all the routes I take so a 70 will not prevent me from going to Los Angeles (400 miles) or San Diego (500+ miles). Even with an 85kwh battery is still be stopping at the same supercharger locations, I would just spend less time there, which I don't care for either as I'm never in a rush when taking a road trip, I take my time and enjoy it.
so to say that a 70 is only a city car is ludicrous.�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 Only specific routes have superchargers. There are lots of major highways that don't have them yet so lots of destinations still that leave you with planning ahead or driving really slow to really maximize that range.�
Jun 1, 2015
kuttakamina Three things to add -
1. And he is in NJ, armpit of the United States but the highest supercharger density, just look at the maps.
2. There is the issue of convenience (stop or go out of route to charge, or just get to hotel or home and chill)
3. Pennsylvania here is a supercharger black hole. As is going towards Roanoke, va. However, both these black holes will be filled up in the next 2 years. Just go two years back and see what the supercharger coverage was back then - it sucked, much worse than today. I don't know when yobig got his car, but 62k miles ... I'm guessing his car is 1-2 years old. Range was a bigger concern then than it is today.
Long story short, if I was doing long drives atleast once a month on unpredictable routes, the extra juice is worth it. Otherwise, save 10k.�
Jun 1, 2015
mmccord
As someone that does a lot of driving in nj, i should point it that it also has the highest population density. Being 15 miles from a supercharger could also mean being an hour drive from a supercharger.�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* 3 open superchargers is considered the "highest supercharger density"?�
Jun 1, 2015
Skotty This is the kind of thing where I disagree with a lot of people. When one doesn't have a lot of reserve capital, purchase price is an absolutely critical factor. Overall cost of ownership doesn't matter, because one can't front the purchase cost. It's a blocker issue. It's the reason rich people get rich and poor people stay poor. It's the reason a poor person often spends their whole life renting and owning nothing instead of buying a house, even if the monthly costs are the same. Ultimately, the poor person can't front the capital for the initial purchase.
Same thing with a Tesla Model S or X. I can know that the total cost of ownership is reasonable and affordable, but it doesn't matter if my finances are not sufficient to buy with cash or get approved for a loan. There's a big difference between asking a bank for a $35K car loan vs a $80K car loan. And whether they should or not, banks don't care about total cost of ownership.�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 Uhm try two hours to go 2 miles sometimes, particularly towards upper NJ where the superchargers are lol�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 Any trips to PA and back or down the shore and back will use up all the range and run low bc that's exactly where the holes are. Also try going to Scranton or central NY from philly/south jersey good luck lol there aren't any superchargers so you have to rely on plugshare or if you're lucky finding a HPWC somewhere if u have the dual chargers.�
Jun 1, 2015
mmccord And Paramus is a CF 6 days a week.�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 Hahaha that's for sure. Driving anywhere around NJ and NYC suburbs blows.�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 At least you didn't sell your stock for the down payment right before the bubble. Biggest mistake ever.�
Jun 1, 2015
chriSharek I agree with you completely and my CFO/wife would as well. She reminds me that the $7,500 fed tax credit won't help the financed amount of the car, which is another good point.
Because of this, I took out a 401k loan from myself for a down payment. I'm paying myself back with interest - from each paycheck. I'd rather pay myself rather than a bank the interest, right?�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* Many places offer 110% financing at decent rates.
I'm sure you know this, but for anyone else considering this: With a 401k loan you're being taxes twice on the money you took-out. And the interest you're paying yourself is likely less than you would earn from ROI.�
Jun 1, 2015
chriSharek I feel I have too much money in there already and could die tomorrow. I also reduced my contributions to 9% (from 12%). Between the wife and I, we had over 20% going to 401k/IRA accounts. We need to live a little - IMHO!�
Jun 1, 2015
yobigd20 Eh the company match was "free anyway" is how I look at it lol�
Jun 1, 2015
mmccord 401k Loan Double Taxation Myth�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* I think everyone on this forum agrees with that mentality!
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Semantics. But I see the point.�
Jun 1, 2015
mmccord For what it's worth, you do get double taxed on the interest you pay yourself. It is new post tax money that gets taxed again on withdrawal.�
Jun 1, 2015
dsm363 Did they ever announce a 60D?�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* Playing devils advocate, would you rather get double taxed on it or pay the interest to someone else?�
Jun 1, 2015
liuping It depends on the 401k Loan rate.
When I got my Model S back in 2013, the auto loan was 1.49%, while my 401k Loan rate was 7%. In that case, double tax on 7% was more money than just paying Alliant Credit Union the 1.49%.�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* I guess rates are a little more comparable now. I've seen rates of 1.49%-2.99% on a car loan for 60-84 months and 401k loan is at 4.25% now roughly?�
Jun 1, 2015
chriSharek Guys, I only took out $25k at 4%. I paid off the Volt, threw some at credit cards, and will put a $7,500 deposit down (and recoup that in February with our taxes). I would hate for you guys to think I took out a $100k loan for the entire car!�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* Not everything is about you�
Jun 1, 2015
mmccord I financed the whole amount even though i could have written a check. At <2% i will borrow every dollar offered to me. My return on capital is significantly better than that.�
Jun 1, 2015
kuttakamina I don't know man! Forward looking if I could guarantee > 2%, I'd be thrilled. I just don't see too many opportunties in the market right now, but maybe I'm being too pessimistic. That said, I've been pessimistic for > 1 year now, and have missed a significant upside already. <-- IDIOTSRUS!�
Jun 1, 2015
Max* With a diversified portfolio I'm sure you can get more than a 2% ROI, assuming we don't hit another great recession
I financed 100% (minus the $2,500) also (I don't have that amount in cash, lol), but my thinking was I have higher APR items to take care of, so at 2%-3% it makes financial sense to take out as much as possible�
Jun 1, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel Easy. 2% of 100K is $2000 per year. Extrapolate and round up, you are looking at about $5000 for the 5 years. You pay less interest because interest is calculated on what you owe and you will lower your principal as you go. So it is not straight $2000 per year, but progressively less and less.
Last year i just made $2000 in stocks using about $20000 in capital. It was a great year. This year is harder for sure. But i got 4 years more to make the other $3000. Also i have more money to play with if i theoretically have $100K laying around. If I am a gambler, then I can probably make the $3000 pretty quickly by NOT diversifying and betting it all on a rise on TSLA stock.
With such low interest rates, it is better to use other people's money. : )�
Jun 1, 2015
kuttakamina No2DinosaurFuel, I don't know why, but I imagine you as Sheldon from the big bang theory.�
Jun 2, 2015
chriSharek I don't necessarily agree, but LOL!�
Jun 2, 2015
jtpassat This is how banks are making their money right now and how the rich get richer. Just cross your fingers there isn't another bubble bursting anytime soon.
�
Jun 9, 2015
breser Yes you could even order one from October 9th to November 5th 2014. But on November 5th at the Q3 2014 earnings call they announced they would not make any 60D vehicles and then forced all the people with those orders to change their order.�
Jun 10, 2015
TomServo I may have looked at the "battery size" issue from a different perspective as a Volt owner, but until the CPO came along I thought buying and carrying around a BIG battery for the few times a year I'd need it was a waste.
I thought it more efficient to use the GRID as my fuel tank rather than a BIGGER battery. I still feel that's the better solution (more plugs) not bigger batteries.
Maybe I'm off base here but isn't it cheaper to build MORE PLUGS?�
Jun 10, 2015
chriSharek If I understand your logic correctly, wouldn't it also argue why you would carry around that ICE in the Volt? Don't get me wrong, I love my 2011 Volt and will hand it to my kiddo.
But, given the choice of a bigger battery or an ICE, I'm now choosing to go with the bigger battery for those occasions I will need the additional range.�
Jun 10, 2015
TomServo Yes and no, at the time I bought our Volt that was all I could afford. But I'm stretching to buy a Tesla 85Kw for the range too.�
Jun 10, 2015
breser You're not entirely off base but there are a few realities you have to consider.
1) Charging takes time. A bigger battery isn't just about range, it's also about time. The larger battery can capture more charge when you don't need the car so you have to spend less time when you want to be moving charging the car.
2) It's going to take time to build more of those plugs. Fast charging is still very limited. Tesla has built out an impressive network, but for at least another year or two you're still going to have significant dead spots. Which means you're going to use slower chargers. The slower the charger the more the penalty is of having a smaller battery.
3) People are not entirely rational. ICE infrastructure has acclimated people to the idea they can go anywhere anytime without any planning. Because you have to go somewhere to fill up and only do so somewhat irregularly it's made people expect that sort of behavior with EVs. Even though filling up more often when you're not using the vehicle and it's sitting idle is more convenient for 99% of the time.
4) The bigger battery gives you more room for degradation without losing your required range (presuming you don't really need the full range of the car as most people really don't). It also means that you can not cycle the battery as deep, which is supposedly better for the battery.
Long term I expect fast charging infrastructure will become very common and thus the above won't be as important. I expect people to understand the advantages of an EV better. I expect battery technology to improve. But we're not there yet.�
Jun 11, 2015
TomServo thanks for the thoughtful response, you brought up points I hadn't considered before.
old dogs can learn new tricks. Thanks�
Jun 11, 2015
GregTexas I could afford a Bentley and a Maserati and I went with the 70D because 95% of my driving will be to local restaurants. Although now that I have gotten used to this rocket ship, I wish I stuck with the 85D that I initially ordered.�
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