Dec 1, 2015
mn4az Now that the meteorological winter is here I would like to start a very self serving (looking to order a MS in the next 3 months and live in Minnesota) thread on the 70D and winter performance (specifically around real world range). Questions:
1. What was the longest trip you've taken during winter in your 70D in temperatures that were below 40F?
2. What was the temperature (approximately) during your driving?
3. Did you get the range you expected?
4. Did you do anything heroic to make some big "jumps" (ie distances over 200 miles)?
TIA!�
Dec 1, 2015
rjcbox I researched similar expectations before my purchase 6mo ago. The most extreme example I read on TMC was driving in New Jersey dead of winter, good cabin heating, on NJ I95 Interstate at high speeds and burning miles almost 2 for 1.
I don't baby my driving at all and drive it like prior cars. In my experience over past month, I burn through ~1.5-1.6 miles range per 1 projected mile range on a 50-mile round-trip. This accounts for the car sitting in a cold parking lot overnight X 10 hours not plugged in, then preheating for 5-10min from ~45degrees to 85 degrees, and "paying" for it w/ 10 miles (~3kWh) which I gladly will pay for a toasty cabin in the wee hours of the morning. Not exact answers to your questions since I've only started my 1st winter experience, but hope it helps as a point of reference�
Dec 2, 2015
gmetrail If you didn't see it, check out the blog entry Doug wrote on the subject: Cold Weather Driving - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum�
Dec 2, 2015
David_Cary I have a very early 70D and I got it in May of 2015. Since Australia is always behind the US, no one has driven a 70D in the winter. Obviously range estimates in cold from the other models can be used.
Maybe Da Nort Woods is a famous place I've never heard of. Maybe a joke. Either way, you are asking a location dependent question so you probably should be exact on your location.
I went from Cary to Charlotte on T-day morning. I passed some hills and got down to 42. I started at 232. Landed at 77. It was 145 mile trip. But probably not the kind of winter you were thinking of.�
Dec 2, 2015
mn4az Da Nort Woods = Minnesota
I will update my original post to be a bit more clear.
- - - Updated - - -
Hadn't seen the blog. Will give it a read. Thanks!�
Dec 2, 2015
Max* I took a trip recently, temps were... moderately cold. not severe though. I want to say high 30s.
My wh/mi increased from the 260-280 range to the 300-320 range (same trip, I've taken it many times), going the same speed (about 75mph). I might have snapped a photo somewhere, I want to say I did about 180 miles and still had charge left.
I would guesstimate I could have pushed it to 200 miles on a 100% charge, going 75mph in the high 30s.
My guesstimate comes a little higher than Tesla's estimate on their webpage at Model S | Tesla Motors�
Dec 2, 2015
Armadillos Drove from my house in Denver, CO up to Copper Mountain, going over a 11,000 foot mountain pass, with the temperatures at around 20F. Left the house with the 70D at 240 miles, got to the mountain with 102. I would usually have about 140 or so in the summer. It's 68 miles from my house to the mountain.�
Dec 2, 2015
mn4az Very helpful... thanks. Is the speed limit over the pass is around 60MPH?�
Dec 2, 2015
MrClown It's 65 pretty much the whole way except for some construction and a couple miles at 50 at the very top.�
Dec 5, 2015
NC70D Not quite that low of a temperature for me. But, thought I would add my data from yesterday. Drove 142 miles and went from 238 Rated Miles (Full charge at delivery) arrived home with 71 Rated Miles. Kept cruise set to 75 for most of the trip (A little under/over here and there). Average Temps were around 55F. Range mode was toggled many times while I "tried" to see if it helped. (I determined due to too many factors, I could make no determination yet about range mode) So, 55F at approx. 75 mph, I saw 142 miles take 167 miles of range.�
Dec 5, 2015
CHGolferJim Good data point: 118% of RM @ 55*F @ 75 mph. I'm traveling to Beaufort and Charleston next week on various types of roads, and will report.
[BTW, EVTripPlanner estimates 132% for an 85D from Raleigh Tesla to Wrightsville Beach, 1.1, 55*, 70*, 173/131.]�
Dec 5, 2015
NC70D Just drove this morning from Wilmington to Emerald Isle. Mid-fifties, 89 miles and used only 87 Rated Miles. Autopilot set at 59 most of the way, on flat ground. Nice to get Rated miles on a route I drive alot.�
Dec 19, 2015
mn4az Now that we've had some days that it's been 10-20F, at least here in MN, I am bumping this thread to get some more real world data. This thread will help me with a 70D v 85RWD vs 85D decision. TIA for your real world experiences.
�
Dec 19, 2015
JeffS This is harder to do than you think. Even driving 25miles running errands on a Saturday, can vary depending how you drive it. Start up heat for cabin and battery really suck up the energy. Amortize that start up heat over 25mi in one non stop trip, and you will see one result. Do it in five 5mi bursts, with a cold soak in between, and it will be different.
I am in WI, and in summer, I get 4ish miles per kWh. In spring and fall, I get 3ish miles per kWh. In the ultra cold, I can see range as low as 2mi per kWh. In a 70, you have about 55kWhs to work with. Below zero temps on a cold soak, heat on, no preheat, you could get as low as 1mi/kWh for a short time.
Said another way, my daily commute is 36 miles. I have used as little as 8kWhs on a gorgeous July day. And I have used as much as 29kWhs in a very cold snowstorm with stop and go snow covered roads both ways the whole way.
Hopefully that helps?�
Dec 19, 2015
Max* Something about that math is a little off, rounding maybe?
4miles/kw * 55kw = 220 miles in good weather. I've done 220 miles, going 75mph and still had about 7% left (another 15-20 miles)�
Dec 19, 2015
mn4az Sort of. I am mostly concerned about road trips during the coldest MN/WI days in which you'd average 65MPH. Thus, in your experience, on one of those cold days (ie around zero degrees) what be the longest distance you'd want to safely drive in your 70D with a 100% charge?
FWIW... Based on my research I am assuming about 125 miles at 65MPH, zero degrees F, heat on and 19 inch wheels. Just trying to figure out if that is reasonably close to what others have experienced to know if I am close.�
Dec 19, 2015
jerry33 About 170 miles for an S85 in -20 to -30 weather. Less if the roads are snow covered. I imagine the D70 wouldn't be much different.�
Dec 19, 2015
JeffS Milwaukee to Minneapolis, in summer I go straight through to LaCrosse. In winter I top up in Madison. 170mi is easy. 210 is easy as well. When on road trips, you can always slow down. If you have to go 200mi, and its ridiculously cold, just slow down a bit.
I post this just as example. 125 miles after preconditioning in winter, you can probably do that at 80mph.�
Dec 20, 2015
mn4az Thanks JeffS and jerry33. Really hope somebody here owns a 70D and can/will validate range at 65MPH when temps are near zero degrees F with heat on. My assumption is that 100 miles at an 80% charge or 125 miles at a 100% charge is totally doable/safe. But would love to know from a 70D owner if that is a good estimate or if the range is actually better/worse.
FWIW... When we pull the trigger on an MS we'll be an all EV family and thus am weighing a well optioned 70D vs less optioned 85/85D.�
Dec 20, 2015
sbradbury I have a 70D in MN, unfortunately we haven't had anything close to 0 degrees yet so my information won't be anything new. On the coldest days we've had so far, ~20f I see between 325-350wh/mile. I also always start with a pre-heated cabin and park in an insulated garage.�
Dec 20, 2015
S'toon Wouldn't it be better to ask in January/February? You know, when it's the mid-winter deepest cold, and 4 feet of show on the ground. :tongue:�
Dec 22, 2015
Armadillos I will be heading up from Denver, CO to Cheyenne, WY over the Christmas break with my 70D, and I'll give you guys a report. It's supposed to be pretty cold then (17F for the high), so should be good info.�
Dec 22, 2015
mn4az Very helpful. Thanks!�
Dec 22, 2015
svp6 In real MN winter you should be very pessimistic about range. It is not only the cold, but also the frequent wind. Here are some data from one of my posts last year - albeit in a P85D. I can promise you there was no lead-foot driving, and cabin temp was a modest 65-67F. As you will see, the best was 370 Wh/mi (tail-wind), the worst 560 Wh/mi (head-wind). All these on 19" wheels. Based on my experience:
1. I am counting on ~450 Wh/mi in normal driving (~70 mph, cabin temperature 70F) at anything below 30F.
2. If I need to get a round trip to Twin Cities (~170 mi) I have to reduce speed to 65 and cabin temp to 65F to make it with some spare - this gets me at ~400-420 Wh/mi. Snowing or very windy = no trip for me.
If you think battery usage is ~7% better with non-performance over performance cars (270 EPA in 85D vs 253 EPA with P85D), that gives you ~420 Wh/mi in comfortable driving and ~380 Wh/mi in must-go-there driving. I presume you can use only ~60 KWh out of your 70 KWh battery (you may check this with 70D owners), giving you a range of 143 mi (comfortable) or 157 mi bundle-your-jacket style.
Of course you can beat these numbers if you drive slower and do not heat your cabin. But we are talking realistic comfortable driving here.
I would strongly encourage you to get the 85D if you plan to do any longer winter trips in MN. If and when superchargers are ubiquitous, that may change.�
Dec 23, 2015
NC70D Not yet a great answer to the OP, but I am leaving for a trip of ~165 miles each way for this weekend and will make the same trip next weekend. Current forecast is for lows above 60, but should be cooler next weekend giving a decent idea of how a 70D will do on same route in different temperatures. I will post updates that are hopefully useful to extract the range loss due to cold weather.�
Dec 23, 2015
mn4az Appreciate everyone assist on this. Safe travels and Merry Christmas everyone!�
Dec 24, 2015
NC70D While this was at approx 70 degrees, I am expecting to make the same drive next week in colder temps. 162 miles exactly of driving yielded the following stats. 52.4kwh used at 324Wh/mi. 193 rated miles consumed. We had range mode on, and drove through some rain. Autopilot was set to 72 for most of the trip. I will post more information, and hopefully we can get an idea of what colder temps will do to a 70D. FYI, net elevation gain was just under 500 feet.�
Dec 24, 2015
Max* It's not just about net elevation change. I can go up a hill and down a hill with no net elevation change, but use a lot of charge.
I had a 500 mile trip night, the last leg of the trip was 102 miles, the car said I needed 152 miles to get the trip planner to show 0% at the destination. It was a lot of ups and downs and I don't hypermile, so my wh/mi weren't great (around 350, probably. Compared to 243 wh/mi on the first leg, due to traffic not letting me go faster than 45mph)�
Dec 30, 2015
travwill I don't have any solid stats or data but I would say now that it is cold, 30s in Chicago, 20s at times and soon even lower, the car has pros and cons, and the 70 needs to be considered carefully if in cold weather climates.
1. I'm using the car preheating, subzero, and keeping it usually at a comfy 74 setting. For city driving this isn't a big deal at all. It goes draw 500-700 average watts per mile though and eats up a lot of range in shorter trips.
2. I notice the range dropping/hitting the most when I go on lots of stops - e.g. it gets a bit cold again and reheats, etc. Never been an issue though.
3. Some days I drive say 10 to work, 10 back, then 40 somewhere and back, no issues. Was supposed to be 100 miles I'd say total rated, but ends up instead of dropping from 210 (90% charge) to 110, may drop to like 95-100 instead remaining. That is a lot of driving more me as most days it is just 40 or less miles running around I'd say for sure.
4. On road trips once you get going it seems like you'll be more efficient in the long-run, but at that point then the cold weather, wet roads, and size of the 70 pack would start to worry me. Our superchargers are definitely not as abundant in the mid-west so if I did take trips to cities say 2-3 hours away often, then I'd probably want to get a 90D to be safe and more comfortable. Even then it doesn't buy you too many more miles but would definitely help. I'd also suppose you'd be doing less total cycles on the battery so it should last a bit longer than the 70 if driving more also.
But in short, no issues at all in Winter so far with 70D. It is a great handling car (with winter tires on it) and extremely comfortable with the preheating. I will say though that (just though of it) the wipre heater element on windshield doesn't help much in icy weather, and rear window elements do work, but take a while. I really wish a car with this large of a rear window and slope had a rear wiper system somewhat - you'll definitely be scraping the back window often it seems.
-T�
Dec 31, 2015
mn4az Agreed. Using your numbers you provided (thanks!) and others that have commented on TMC and Facebook group I have basically factored in the following as a worst case scenario:
Usable battery: 60kWh (~85% usable of the 70kWh battery pack)
Worst anticipated Wh/mi: 550 Wh/mi
Thus, the absolute worst range I am anticipating for a 70D is:
108 miles w/ 100% charge
87 miles w/ 80% charge
Questions in my logic above:
1. Is 550 Wh/mile to conservative for a worst case scenario?
2. Is 85% usable battery to conservative?�
Dec 31, 2015
grichard Here in St. Louis this week, I've found that my range is affected greatly by the height of the water over the road.
Of course, if the water gets high enough, your range depends on whether you want to travel with the river's current, or against it.�
Dec 31, 2015
mn4az You know Tesla's have submarine mode - right?
Tesla Model S Easter egg turns car into submarine�
Dec 31, 2015
Pinarello I have a 70D that I received a few weeks ago. I recently completed a roundtrip from the Chicago suburbs to the Milwaukee suburbs (about 200 miles total). It was in the mid 20's F and fairly windy. I did a 100% charge right before leaving and preheated the vehicle. The car was idle for several hours during a meeting before my return trip. I took country roads so my speed varied between 65 mph and 50 mph with some stop and go for traffic lights, etc. I don't recall the exact range remaining when I got home, but it was somewhere around 20 miles.
Knowing the trip would be tight, I used the seat heater, kept the cabin temperature around 66 degrees and turned off the cabin and seat heaters on occasion, but they were not off that much because it got too cold for my liking. I also drove conservatively and used the cruise control whenever I could. When I left the Navigation system tried to route me to the Super Charger in Milwaukee, but I choose to ignore the advise and risk it. I passed by enough J1772 chargers on my way home that I could stop if I became overly concerned about making it.�
Dec 31, 2015
S4WRXTTCS On my most recent trip I went about 170 miles in 25-30F degree weather.
I started off at the Centralia, WA supercharger with an almost 100% charge (probably 99%) and my destination was the Amtrak Station in Vancouver, WA. I only intended to charge to 90%, but my passenger was shopping.
Anyways on the way down the average speed was about 75MPH (a good portion of it has a 70MPH speed limit and I set TACC at 75). My side of the cabin was set to 72F, and the passenger side was set to 82F. I didn't have my heated seat on, but the passenger had theirs at 3. I believe my energy usage was somewhere at 370-380 Wh. I only briefly glanced at it though.
After dropping my passenger off in Vancouver I normalized the cabin temp back to 72F, and turned off all the heat seating. The trip planner said I'd have about 6% battery left when I arrived back in Centralia. So on the way back I slipped behind a semi doing 65MPH. The TACC setting was set at 5 so i was pretty far away. I stayed behind him until the trip planner said I'd have 10% left. Then I set the speed to 70MPH, and left the comfort of the semi. I believe my average usage was somewhere around 320Wh.
I arrived at the supercharger with 8% left.
Compared to the same journey when its warm (50-70F) it takes a heck of lot more energy to do it. During the summer I don't ever recall needing to charge to 100% to do a 170Mile trip with approx 10% of buffer.�
Dec 31, 2015
Babasnoopy Here in Boston we finally have dipped into the 30's and I've been off since Christmas as my company shuts down this past week. With only small cold battery trips, my wh/mi are in the 400's. I've been almost thinking something was seriously wrong until I briefly turned off the HVAC last night during an errand, and my usage dropped right down to almost exactly Rated Range. This scares me a bit for the long cold winters we have in the northeast. I don't crank the heat, but I'm also not one to keep the car like an ice box in the name of efficiency. For those that have done a few winters, is an average in the 400's normal?�
Dec 31, 2015
travwill I think in very cold weather and if you keep the cabin comfy, say 72+, your going to see an average in the 500s+.�
Jan 1, 2016
Babasnoopy Thanks Travwill, yikes, I guess I'll become quite friendly with the Superchargers.
�
Jan 1, 2016
sbportech I drove across 80 and then down to 70 to denver, tempts as low as -9, cabin at 75 with range mode on and saw 370,s most of the trip. Speeds at 60-70, I always made it between SC with about 10-15% less than the starting est. on the car.�
Jan 1, 2016
mn4az Great piece of data. Thanks!
Looking forward to others experience/data as well.�
Jan 1, 2016
ERP P85D, drove it from Colorado Springs to Breckenridge the back way, route 24 to 9. I drive this once or twice a month. There is some significant elevation gain. But during the summer I can make it round trip without charging in Breckenridge. This was the first cold weather trip up and the energy usage was significantly higher than the summer or fall.
119 miles, 50 mph average, the temperature ranged from 35 F to -17 F, most of the trip was around 0 F.
Energy usage was 423 Wh/mi.
For some portions of the trip, climbing up hill with sub-zero temps, The 30 mile average energy usage was 580 Wh/mi.
�
Jan 1, 2016
Lex I am heading into my first winter and was looking forward to it but now you are making me anxious :biggrin: so far I am using at least 25% more power -- around 400 wh/mile if my math is right but I think I've seen it push up to 550 for a bit depending on cold soak, driving etc.
So far we are just a bit below freezing here, but I've had to adapt to the reduced regen etc. since around +10 C. Though now I get to see the <!> more on the power side for a bit.
I'm happy with the seat heater and especially the steering wheel heater, where has that been all my life. I am happy keeping temp coolish at 19.5 C... so far so good, but when it gets to 10 below and colder, eg. where C meets F (-28 or something ??) which can happen here.... then I suppose we shall see. Since I'm mostly in the city for the winter some public J1772 chargers have been saved and so may they save me one day if I miscalculate.�
Jan 1, 2016
mn4az Thanks for the data points. They are helpful.
Because the 70D would make us an all EV house I am trying to go in eyes wide open with a worst case scenario as possible. Need to make sure that drives we do in Minnesota/Wisconsin during the winter can get us to where we need to do without compromising to much on speed. Temp right now is 20F/-7C which is reasonably "warm" for some of the temps I have driven in for extended periods of time.
Based on others data points I will likely adjust my worst anticipated Wh/mi to 500 Wh/mi. Doing so means I should get 101 miles / 162 km at 80% and 126 miles / 202 km at 100%.
Please keep tracking what you are seeing in Toronto as you push towards 0F / -17C and let me know what Wh/km (or Wh/mile) you are seeing.�
Jan 2, 2016
Armadillos Sorry for the late response, but I was out on vacation, and haven't really been in front of my computer until now. So here's the info I have going from my house in Denver, CO (Elevation is 5,600 ft), to my parent's place in Cheyenne, WY (Elevation is 6,000 ft):
I charged up to 200 miles on my 70D, and headed out. The temps were around 15-20F when I left Denver. Drove about 85MPH half way there, to which the car informed me that I wouldn't make it if I kept driving that far (Distance from my house to my parent's place is 125.4 miles). I slowed down to 80MPH, and was able to make it to their place with 22 miles of charge left.
The temp when I got there was around 5F.
So here's my information from my car (and I can give a picture as well if needed):
Miles Driven: 125.4
KWh Used: 47.6
Wh/mile: 380
Hope this helps!�
Jan 2, 2016
Lex Sure, but might be a while as they just readjusted next week's temps to around freezing with only one dip to -11 C / 10 F. We used to get lucky in Toronto with winter weather (well, relative to the neighboring cities) and it looks like this year we are, so far, very lucky.
Wonder where our European 70D drivers are ? It was below freezing in Athens yesterday... (then again only 2 below in Oslo right now)
Nice info. This reminds me, I had been meaning to bring up the whole "kWh Used" figure -- when I drove from 100% to 0% last, I think the car reported 57 used (I'm sure I have a picture somewhere). Am I missing something or shouldn't this figure more closely approach pack capacity ? And this is ignoring and added power that regen introduces. Perhaps lost in conversion, or part of the Tesla magic.�
Jan 2, 2016
mn4az Very helpful. Thanks! 380 Wh/mile at 80-85 MPH in temps below 20F seems fantastic. Do you recall if this was wind aided (ie tail wind)?
- - - Updated - - -
There's a bunch of threads on this but, to be really conservative, it's the reason I factored in that only 90% of the stated battery pack could be used.
Real Usable Battery Capacity�
Jan 2, 2016
Lex Interesting and related thread from a new 85D owner...
Disappointed with range estimate in first long term drive
I'd not want to experience my 1st BEV in the cold as it's a very different set of parameters to experience, that's for sure.
Going into the slow lane seems to be the best way to maximize winter range... though this tactic would probably have me pulling my hair out if not for Autopilot :wink:�
Jan 2, 2016
Lex Of particular note from that thread is to try EV Trip Planner:
EV Trip Planner
It doesn't have a 70D yet though, but you can toggle between 60 and 85D to get an idea. It seems pretty reasonable if not conservative.
In some browsers it seems you have to double-click on the button to make it calculate otherwise very good site.�
Jan 4, 2016
Armadillos There was a cross wind, so was trying to blow my car sideways.
�
Jan 5, 2016
Max* My usual morning trip during the summer uses 330wh/mi. It's about 15 miles of driving in 40mins, so lots of bumper-to-bumper traffic/stoplights/etc.
17F today in the morning, and I used 505wh/mi, no preheating, no range mode.�
Jan 5, 2016
mn4az Thanks Max*. 70D or some other variant of an MS?�
Jan 5, 2016
Max* 70D.�
Jan 8, 2016
mn4az Updating the original questions...
1. What was the longest trip you've taken during winter in your 70D in temperatures that were below 40F?
2. What was your Wh/mile?
3. What was the temperature (approximately) during your driving?
4. Did you get the range you expected?�
Jan 8, 2016
ForeverFree Keep in mind that he was at mile-high elevations. High altitudes (thinner air) offset some of the effects of colt temperature (thicker air).�
Jan 8, 2016
mn4az Good call out.�
Jan 13, 2016
sbradbury We've finally had some cold weather in MN, stats from yesterday
-6F for the morning drive
10 hours cold soak in the parking lot
2F for the evening drive
35 total miles driven, 435Wh/mile
range mode on
started the day from a warmish garage (35-40F)
pre-heated cabin while plugged in to 65F
Defrost always on
Cabin temp set at 65F
no seat heaters�
Jan 13, 2016
mn4az Good stats... Thanks! What would you say your average speed was?�
Jan 14, 2016
sbradbury Not really sure how to estimate that, 75-80 on the freeway, I definitely do not go out of my way to drive slowly just to conserve energy on my normal daily drives.�
Jan 18, 2016
Magus I drive the speed limit generally. Driving interstate typically means 65-70. In conditions above 50 degrees, I want to say I'll have an efficiency rating of 260-270. Before the hard part of winter, even going into early winter my lifetime was 267 wh/mi. In freezing conditions and driving the highway speed limits, my wh/mi is typically 300-330. Sometimes less, even have seen 240. More if I make stops and there's a "cold soak." In subzero temperatures, trips above 40-50 degrees that typically are averaging 260-270 wh/mi, go to around 330. If I make a stop and cold soak - meaning in the deep freeze at least a couple of hours, typically three or more, may wh/mi spikes to the high 300s, almost 400. That is - stops while exposed to the deep freeze for a significant time period. With warm S, and subzero temperatures, my wh/mi climbs to 330ish in 55ish mph highways.
I'm happy with going with the 70D. In subzero weather, the SC's are spaced that you can make it despite the conditions. In summer I would have no issues venturing beyond the SC network. In winter, no issues at all with travelling and with plenty of excess range to do so. However, in subzero weather, I wouldn't dare venture significantly far from the SC network. I also wouldn't dare leave my home - let alone travel.�
Jan 18, 2016
nated I recently did a 206 mile there and back trip in my 70D with a charge to 100% in the middle. It was about 15-20F on mostly winding canyon roads with a lot of slowing/accelerating on corners. Average speed was maybe 50mph and the elevation climbs about 3500 feet going so descends the same coming back. No real attempt to conserve energy (no range mode, etc.); just driving like I usually do (which is moderately aggressive :biggrin
It's a little concerning the first time you see the graph max out at 900 Wh/mi for 5-10 minutes after a cold start (especially below like 10F), but after that it drops down and looks good. The range is a bit lower than I expected in <30-40F weather, but met my expectations when it's above that. Overall I still love the 70D.�
Jan 19, 2016
mn4az Thanks! Had a friend make a run to Iowa from MN in subzero temps with his S85 (RWD) this weekend. He rated out at 465wh/mile for the trip. We figured the 70D would have been around 450wh/mile for that same trip.
Thanks!�
Jan 19, 2016
JeffS Just did a round trip Milwaukee to Chicago over the weekend in subzero temps. Trip 1 was -2deg F. Trip 2 was -4deg F. Trip 1 avg 444wH/mi. Trip 2 avg 465wH/mi. Both running 70-80mph. Range mode on, cabin temp 71, rear defrost and seat heaters on.
We were at the CHI boat show in the loop. So we left the car at the Tesla store there, and Uber'd to and from the show. Was able to leave the car plugged in to minimize the cold soak a bit. Plus, when we left to go home, we were almost fully charged. When it's this cold, I charge at a lower rate so that it's charging longer. In this case, I selected 18amp charging so that it would take 7 hours to charge to 80%. When charging, heat is being produced, which helps keep the battery warmer.
In both cases, the first 20miles or so were restricted output and regen due to the cold.
For perspective though, please remember, there are only 10 - 20 days a year when we have to deal with the ultra-cold temps. The other 350-or-so-days...we're everywhere from cold in the high teens morning drive to highs in the low 30's on the way home... To moderate. To summer for a couple of days.
In my family, we have had Volts since 2012. During the winter of 2013-2014 when the cold waves were breaking records left and right, the EV did struggle. Even though the Volt has a gas generator to produce heat and eliminate any range issues, I was obsessing over my EV vs. Gas stats. One very cold weekend when temps weren't even hitting -10F for highs, for travel to Minneapolis and back, I decided to just spend $45 and rented a Chevy Malibu from Enterprise for the weekend. I was happier. My car was happier. And it was only $45. Just sharing...for what it's worth.�
Jan 19, 2016
mn4az Thanks JeffS. For clarification this MKE/CHI trip was in an S85?
The rental car is absolutely in play. 5 - 10K gets you a lot of good rental days.�
Jan 19, 2016
JeffS Yep - my S85.
From my research, the dual drive is rated longer range due to the torque sleep feature. But it's only about 5-8% if my math is right. From my experience, really cold is really cold and that trumps a lot of other factors. In my opinion, it trumps all of the other factors. No matter what propulsion or fuel - the efficiency of the device is at its worst when temps are below zero deg F.
I'm glad you have rental-cars in your decision process. I've had lots of conversations with folks that just can't get over the hurdle of EV's reduced range in super-cold weather. When completely considered though, the number of times that an alternate plan...like a rental car...has to be enacted is maybe 2 or 3 times over the life of the car. Yet they go buy an ICE because...well...that's just too inconvenient. Thousands of days of driving in moderate or warm weather burning gasoline for no reason, because...well...I might have to travel on a really cold day sometime in the future once or twice... It's just non-sensical to me. Glad you are open to it.�
Jan 19, 2016
mn4az Thanks for the clarification. Living in Minnesota, where the highs haven't been above 0F for the last 3 days, I have to be open to it - especially since we'll be a Leaf/Tesla household. Right now we are a Leaf/Prius household.
FWIW... with the tribal knowledge of TMC I have come up with the following worst case hypothetical scenario in a 70D:
- wH/mile = 500
- Usable battery for driving = 90%
- State of Charge of 100% = 126 miles
- State of Charge of 80% = 101 miles
It would totally suck to have to wait for a 100% SOC to get from the Eau Claire SC to my home (118 miles) but... as you said... it may happen 1 - 3 times over 10 years - with this past weekend perhaps being one of them.�
Jan 22, 2016
Malujerry 70D, 21in rims, 32F, 80 mph, minimal wind, clear roads, Long Island for a 58 mile trip
minimal lowest fan speed on hi heat used periodically (maybe 25 mins total of 50 min trip)
no use of heated seats, maybe 10 mins of steering wheel heat.
around 380wh/mile, started at rated 218, finished 135 miles.used 83 miles for a 58 mile trip.�
Jan 22, 2016
mn4az Thanks!�
Jan 22, 2016
ReddyLeaf Sorry to not have more accurate numbers, but....
I just finished a 3000 mi RT tour from WA State to Tucson, AZ in the 70D. Temps only dropped as low as 20 F, so certainly not applicable to MN winter temps. However, as others have said, it's not always just the ambient temperature since you can time charging to keep the battery warm. The worst leg was the 150 mi from Tremonton, UT to Twin Falls, ID into the wind. We stopped for the night in Tremonton as the snow was starting. Had about 3" overnight, but clear in the morning. Left the car on the SC all night (Yes, I know this seems like poor charging etiquette, but the other seven stalls were empty and anyone arriving later would be spending the night too). The next morning we drove a couple of miles to warm up the battery, then returned to the SC and charged for another 20 min to continue preheating. Started the drive in the 70-80 mph range, but quickly dropped down to 60-65 mph. Once the 30 mph wicked wind of the west hit, and the roads turned to packed snow and ice, we dropped down to 50-60 mph. We watched the energy graph closely, used NO heat (except seat heaters on "1") the entire trip, and struggled on fully expecting to either drop speeds or stop at one of two plugshare options. Once we hit the I-84/86 intersection, we drove straight into the wind and the car seemed to perform better. The earlier cross winds seemed to buffet the car around more than the straight on winds, perhaps causing us to use more energy. Another factor was that the roads cleared up, so less drag from the compact snow and ice. Anyway, we arrived at the Twin Falls SC with about 5% battery, so maybe a 10 mi buffer. The wind effectively turned a 2 hr trip into a 3 hr trip.
Anyway, to summarize, 150 mi, 20-30 F, 30 mph head wind, avg speed was close to 55-60 mph. I've got 4+ years of Leaf driving experience, so I know what I'm doing. This was a bit of a nail biter due to the remote area, winter weather, and lack of secondary charging options. However, since we were on a 3000 mi tour, we were prepared with chains, a snow shovel, winter boots/clothes/gloves, sleeping bags, water/food, extension cords, etc. It's always a good idea to be prepared, but it's even better not to have to use it.
Edit: Oh, I forgot we had another trip from Pasco, WA to the Ellensburg, WA SC (about 120 mi). Temps got down to 6 F, during the drive, but since we started from our garage, the battery was a bit warmer. I timed our 120 V 12 amp charging to finish just before leaving, so certainly not much warmer than the 30-40 F garage ambient. Again, no problems, using all of the heat we wanted and arriving with about 15% battery. The car quickly supercharged in about 30 min for the next leg to Seattle. In contrast, another Tesla that spent the night out at 6 F, needed about 2 hours of charging to slowly warm the battery. So keep your battery warm and long trips will be pretty easy. However, multiple start/stop short trips in town at very low temps will cut the range down by as much as 1/2 or maybe even more depending on conditions.�
Jan 23, 2016
mn4az Thanks!�
Jan 23, 2016
chriSharek I'm in Florida but after reading this thread, I'm so glad I ordered the 85 instead of the 70 I thought would be sufficient. I would presume the use of the AC system has a comparable effect to the loss of range in using the heating system in the 90 degree heat of FL.�
Jan 23, 2016
grichard Not at all! Using an A/C in "very hot" weather uses far less energy than the resistance heater in "very cold" weather. You won't see anything like the range drop of driving in icy cold.�
Jan 23, 2016
mn4az My experience with my Leaf would indicate that AC is nothing like the battery consumption used to heat the car. There is a small hit with AC, but nothing like heat (especially in the dead of winter in MN).
We'll find out soon if I made the right decision because I acquired my 70D yesterday!
#PermaGrin
#IfDecisionWrongCanAlwaysRent�
Jan 23, 2016
chriSharek Well, first congrats to you! I lose about 10% of my range using the AC in my Volt. I figured it would be about that or more with the MS. Again, in FL, using the heat is not as much of an issue - especially with the heated seats.�
Jan 23, 2016
3mp_kwh Not a 70kwh owner, but Wh/mile is so dynamic, especially starting with a cold battery, that I wanted to relate my "go by" when planning ~15F trips with an 85MS:
-For highway ~60-65mph, you lose ~2miles of rated range for every 1 mile driven, for the first 20 miles. Then it goes back down so fast, that it is hard to live by a single "Wh/mile" figure. I can get right on top of 1 mile, for 1 mile rated range, after those first 20 miles. Add a second cold soak into your range planning, and forget Wh/mile, or range. You are ultimately budgeting for the "warm-ups", which only then math-out the range you can expect.
A 2 X 75mi trip, starting cold both times, is totally different than 1 X 150. I can understand the questions trying to answer a single max range trip, but think they do a poor job addressing some common scenarios 70kwh owners will face.�
Jan 23, 2016
PA70D Longest trip this winter about 450 miles. Temperature range during the trip 35 high to 8 or 9 as a low. Only on the last leg when in single digits did I get concerned because it was late at night, in the mountains, and snowing significantly. Rerouted about ten miles outside of plan to super charger in Battlebough, VT.. Was driving NE on hwy 7 to Lebanon,NH trip meter stated 3% at destination. Normal plan for trip plan is to charge 150% between stops. This has always worked including this winter.
More recent trip might be a better reference. Take this trip often so can compare.
156 miles 22degrees F at start high teens at finish, charged to 100%, preheated about 20 minutes before start, weather windy but clear, some elevation change I78 east to I81. Average speed 70mph. Reached home at 6%.
Same trip between 60 & 70 degrees, usually travel at average speed closer to 75 mph reach home between 17 - 18%
at speed Wh/mile around 380, starting out around 490
Range was about as expected, did decrease speed slightly because the new firmware downloaded added a recommended speed to reach destination. Would not have otherwise and believe still would have been OK. Never went as low as the recommendation.
Don't think about range anymore as long as I have a charge to give me 150% rated mileage for the leg. The Lebanon leg in the storm above was at 148% of the charge left Albany, NY at so probably would have made it without a detour.
- - - Updated - - -
Longest trip this winter about 450 miles. Temperature range during the trip 35 high to 8 or 9 as a low. Only on the last leg when in single digits did I get concerned because it was late at night, in the mountains, and snowing significantly. Rerouted about ten miles outside of plan to super charger in Battlebough, VT.. Was driving NE on hwy 7 to Lebanon,NH trip meter stated 3% at destination. Normal plan for trip plan is to charge 150% between stops. This has always worked including this winter.
More recent trip might be a better reference. Take this trip often so can compare.
156 miles 22degrees F at start high teens at finish, charged to 100%, preheated about 20 minutes before start, weather windy but clear, some elevation change I78 east to I81. Average speed 70mph. Reached home at 6%.
Same trip between 60 & 70 degrees, usually travel at average speed closer to 75 mph reach home between 17 - 18%
at speed Wh/mile around 380, starting out around 490
Range was about as expected, did decrease speed slightly because the new firmware downloaded added a recommended speed to reach destination. Would not have otherwise and believe still would have been OK. Never went as low as the recommendation.
Don't think about range anymore as long as I have a charge to give me 150% rated mileage for the leg. The Lebanon leg in the storm above was at 148% of the charge left Albany, NY at so probably would have made it without a detour.�
Jan 23, 2016
CHGolferJim For limited interstate segments on 4 trips in Carolinas and Virginia in Dec/Jan:
70mph at 50*-60*F = ~115% rated/actual
70-75mph at 20*-28*F = ~135% rated/actual
Hope to improve cold weather efficiency by learning to use pre-heating and range mode better. I tend to drive 70mph when trying to stretch actual range, and 75-80 between close together superchargers and the last leg to home.�
Jan 23, 2016
Jtrader I've read a lot of scenarios but I'm new to this and don't understand all the acronyms and nuances so I'm simply wondering if a 70D with 19" wheels can go at least 200 actual miles at 70-75 mph in 50 degree weather with 2 adults, 2 suitcases and 2 golf bags.�
Jan 23, 2016
CHGolferJim About 200, as several of my recent segments suggest (not sure it's proven yet). Might have to drop to 65mph.�
Jan 23, 2016
3mp_kwh For somebody just coming to Tesla, I'd get as much range as you can afford for a general circumstance like 200 mile drives. If not, don't be disappointed at having to pull into a supercharger/CHAdeMO, for 5-10 minutes if on the way with a 70.
A reference is how 85kwh owners can rely on 200 miles, in pretty much all conditions (like today's blizzard). 15kwh is a lot of storage and $10k is a lot of money. If you were planning on a 70D, for regular drives like the one you referenced, I'd say pay up $5k and go to RWD 85 (+snows, if necessary).�
Jan 23, 2016
mn4az Very helpful... thanks.
The original intention of starting this thread was to try and understand what might be the worst expected range I might get on a road trip that would span multiple superchargers. Earlier up the thread I put in what those assumptions are. Over time I will be carefully looking at reality vs hypothesis and posting back to this thread.�
Jan 23, 2016
PA70D I have a 70D with 19� wheels (right now winter tires as well) and have done a number of 200 mile trips with comparable loads. Have never had a problem. This is our first year of driving an all-electric and have learned that when driving an all-electric your thought process over time becomes slightly different.
For example, if you are going on a long trip you only need to make it to the next super charger. You only charge to about 80% because it is fast and you move on.
If your destination is 200 miles and you are spending time, there you can charge overnight or for the time at your activity.
It has been my experience of using a rule of 150% charge for any trip. With this rule have never worried about speed (typical highway around 75 mph) or weather. With your scenario of a 200-mile trip, my plan would be a rout that would include a super charger or plan on staying at the speed limit from the start of the trip. The model S provides a range calculator when driving that is very helpful and with the latest update provides a recommended maximum speed to reach your destination.
There is a good blog on trips with a model �S� and other threads on this.
The Rules of Model S Road Tripping - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum�
Jan 24, 2016
mn4az Thanks! It's pretty surreal to finally own an MS. We have a road trip planned already this winter within Minnesota and the MS will be "accessorized" with a cargo box for our outdoor gear (xc skiis, snow shoes, snowboards, etc). I will be detailing out the experience when it's done.�
Jan 26, 2016
f-stop FYI I just noticed today that evtripplanner.com now DOES have the 70 and 70D in the popup settings
They must have added it very recently, it wasn't there when I last used it a couple weeks ago�
Jan 26, 2016
ReddyLeaf Congratulations. A word of warning: Accessories outside the car can create a huge wind resistance and really blow your range. We put a bike rack and two bicycles on the back and it probably reduces range by 30%. I don't really remember, but it was significant enough to cause us to reduce our driving speed.�
Feb 2, 2016
mn4az Thanks.... I plan on doing a 30 mile test at freeway speeds to get an idea of how wh/mile is impacted.
- - - Updated - - -
Awesome.�
Feb 4, 2016
Lex Wish I had more to contribute to this thread but it's been crazy warm in Toronto this winter, I don't think I've even experienced one complete and total subzero cold soak yet...
I'm now in a P85+ loaner and ya, it's 1 sec. faster 0-60 (which is plenty faster) so I'm probably pushing it harder than my 70D but as a person who monitors % instead of rated range, I'm surprised to see that, at least for in and around the city use, it's been about the same % use as my 70D...
Nice !�
Feb 4, 2016
alb It's shocking how much of a difference outside temperature makes. I picked my 70D in December and the Temps in Boston have been in the 15-35 degree range. I've been getting half the rated mileage with a full charge taking me roughly 120 or 130 miles.
The temperature this morning was 58 degrees when I left the house. For the first time my Wh/mi averaged just under 300 when it has always been over 460.
Can't wait to see what it's like in the summer. It will be good to get the full 240 miles of range.�
Feb 13, 2016
mn4az Haven't taken a big trip yet. But.... this morning was stupid cold in Minnesota: -7F / -21.6C.
Here's my first (but not last) contribution to this thread that I started:
- Warmed up the car for 20 minutes in the garage.
- 30.8 miles of driving
- 41 minutes of driving
- For approx 80% of the miles speed was around 60-65MPH
- 432 Wh/mile�
Feb 14, 2016
mn4az Forgot... Range Mode = Off�
Feb 15, 2016
svp6 You need range mode on..... Did 81 miles on Saturday at -2 to -5F, 65 mph, cabin set at 67 (felt a little cold), averaged 411 Wh/mi. We need a supercharger in Minneapolis...�
Feb 15, 2016
mn4az Not having range mode on for the test was a rookie mistake. FWIW... On Saturday morning 67F was comfy in our 70D with the heated seats and steering wheel on. If needed, could have easily done 65F for cabin temp.
It will absolutely be nice having the one slated for the northern cities in place (snip is from 2016 Tesla SC Map). Making the jump from Eau Claire, WI to Hinckley, MN (~160 miles) or Albert Lea, MN to Hinckley, MN (~175 miles) when it is subzero would be really dodgy in a 70D. I calculate you'd need to average around 400 Wh/mi to make it in subzero temps.
�
Feb 22, 2016
mn4az Wife took the 70D out today for a good long drive at freeway speeds.
- Range Mode On
- No pre-warming of cabin or battery
- Temp ~34F / 1C with minimal wind
- Elevation changes were minimal
- 120 miles round trip (80 miles was at 72 MPH) that followed the same route to and from the destination
- 337 Wh/mile and 40.8kWh consumed�
Feb 22, 2016
David29 There is a 70D owner in Michigan who has posted some very nice videos on YouTube about some winter driving. He posts as Tesla EVangelist. Here is a link to one of his videos about 70D's range, at 75 mph: tesla 70D energy use: Range mode at 75mph - YouTube
Follow that one and then find his other videos, including one for along trip across country, Michigan to California, and another one that tests energy consumption at freeway speeds with various heating conditions.
I also posted a report on my 70D's energy use in short, local trips which generated quite a lot of useful dialog (and some disagreements!), and some good data posted by others. That thread is here:
Some practical observations about the range of a 70D in winter�
Feb 23, 2016
ElectricTundra Drove from St Paul to Chicago in mid January. P85D w/ 19" wheels driving about 1.05% speed limit with an estimated 600 lbs of cargo (me, wife, suitcases, gobs of camera gear). I think wind was from SW so slight tail/side wind. Used AP (v7.0) a good portion of this drive.
St Paul > Eau Claire: 470 Wh/Mi, -9f,
EC > Mauston: 428 Wh/Mi, - 6f
Marston > Madison: 430 Wh/Mi, -5f
Overall amazingly close to EVTripPlanner predictions.�
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