Oct 13, 2014
cdub So let me get this straight...
You're fortunate enough to be able to buy an $80k-140k luxury automobile and the manufacturer announces a new product and then you complain that what you bought a week or a month ago is not the newest and greatest?
Really?
Really?
People... you own a freaking Tesla! The car is still amazing.
Is this some insane case of keeping up with the Jones's next door? There will ALWAYS be something better.
And frankly... if you can afford to buy an $80-$120k vehicle then you can afford to take the loss and trade up to the newest model if that is really what you want to do.
And if that is a big loss that you cannot afford to make then frankly you couldn't afford the Tesla to begin with and be happy with what you have.
If you cashed out your 401k and are stretching to the max to afford the month car payment.... then you couldn't afford the Tesla. (I know people who have cashed out their 401k for one - that is idiotic)
And I say this as someone who cannot afford a Tesla. I own a Nissan Leaf free and clear and one day I will pay for a Tesla in cash but today is not that day.
If you're stretching yourself financially to own one you need to take a step back and reevaluate. If Tesla announcing a new car with new features that isn't in yours makes you whine and complain then you need to reevaluate.
It's a car people. A spectacularly awesome car... but still ... it remains just a car.
Rant over.�
Oct 13, 2014
ScottyNeutron Agreed. I could afford my Model S when I bought it in June. I can also afford to sell it and upgrade. However, I choose not to as my car is awesome. I bought it with the intent to drive it for 8-10 years and with full understanding that it will sooner or later be obsolete compared to upcoming Tesla products.�
Oct 13, 2014
CarlK Same here. I may have to take ~$10K~20K extra loss if I sell my $125K P85+ to buy the P85D but I'm not going to whine like an angry little child because I missed the better toy. Either way I'm still better off than most people in this world and I'm really happy with the car I got.�
Oct 13, 2014
Canuck Same here. However, that original intent of 8 - 10 years may be cut short once I see the the sensors and AWD in action. To me, it's a good thing that new goodies have come along that may be a "must have" for me.�
Oct 13, 2014
jerry33 Right. The new bells and whistles are nice but they are also $16K more than I paid for my Model S and I've had 1.5 years of great driving. Basically, it's a high-tech item which means that if you can buy it, it's already obsolete.
The problem Tesla faces is that old fashioned cars haven't changed significantly since 1955 when disk brakes were first installed on the ID/DS, so people are used to thinking that a car is a car and only the accessories (radio, lights, sheet metal, etc.) change from year to year, whereas Tesla changes the entire paradigm with significant improvements to the drive train and efficiency.�
Oct 13, 2014
CatB +100
i don't want to give mine up, even if for a better one.
And for those who want to trade up, that's great - it puts more affordable good used electric cars on the road.
I can't wait to trade in my Prius for a model 3 with all these cool, debugged features
�
Oct 13, 2014
dsm363 Yeah. My 8 year plan may have been trashed as well. Hoping at least 4-6 years now.�
Oct 13, 2014
Krugerrand [SUB][/SUB]Yes.
Yes.
Right?
People generally don't like to be stereotyped, but there is a reason stereotypes exist in the first place. Right now there are some that are embracing one like it's a really important part of their body.�
Oct 13, 2014
FLDarren +1 I don't think il ever get rid of my S. In a weird way it feels like an extension of me. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way either. Sure AWD and autopilot would be nice. But my Tesla grin overrides all that.�
Oct 13, 2014
tandrup I agree with your statements - mostly. I think that part of why the group is reacting this way is due to the personal monetary impact and secondarily due to the fact that we are not used to seeing car-evolution like this in this industry. I could be wrong, but my opinion of the legacy car brands is that they typically announce a slight change in the exterior design and some minor, small incremental feature upgrades. What we are seeing with Tesla is the opposite: The outside looks exactly the same, but the car just got updated to "Model S 2.0". I think we have to get used to looking at buying a Model S exactly like buying a flat screen tv at Best Buy - you buy one that you like and you keep it until it is so outdated after 3, 4, 5 or 6 years depending on personal preference that we feel like it's worth it to sell the old one for pennies and upgrade to the latest model that costs the same, but is twice as big, half as thin, 4 times the resolution, etc.
Thanks,
Lars�
Oct 13, 2014
Todd Burch cdub...thanks for putting a bit of sanity back on this forum.�
Oct 13, 2014
R�B Do we really need more of these threads?�
Oct 13, 2014
yobigd20 seriously. I think the mods should just merge all the bitching and whining threads into one thread.�
Oct 13, 2014
bonnie That would require one of us looking at all the threads. It seems cruel to even ask that of us.�
Oct 13, 2014
Btrflyl8e Who bought this car thinking improvements wouldn't be made? I bought before power folding mirrors, parking sensors, etc. I figured those would be added to newer versions, didn't care enough to wait. I don't regret my decision, nor do I blame Tesla for not telling me they were going to add those things. Sheesh.�
Oct 13, 2014
yobigd20 lol you actually made me laugh for once HAHA�
Oct 13, 2014
yobigd20 Nobody's even mentioned yet the A to B battery swap that happened with no public mentioning and the early A battery packs limited to 90kWh supercharging....add that to the list of continuous unannounced improvements that people felt that they got screwed on. Oh the "sig tax" ppl too with their prototype parts and misaligned panels and gaps lol�
Oct 13, 2014
linkster Huh ! I was thinking more along the lines of their own separate forum for bitching, whining, crying, wind-shield smashing, full-page newspaper ad takers, petition signers, etc..........:cursing:
cdub, Thanks for initiating a great thread!�
Oct 13, 2014
KJD Pretty much sums up what I have been thinking the last few days. That was a good post.
Tesla, just keep building amazing cars.�
Oct 13, 2014
NOLA_Mike Obsolete? Maybe. But still awesome!�
Oct 13, 2014
GeekGirls Technology moves quickly. It's pretty much axiomatic that everything on the market is going to be replaced by something more advanced that is already in the works. The only advantage of buying a product now is that you'll have it before those who choose to wait for the inevitable improvements. Buy a product because you like the functionality you're willing to live with, or prepare to pay handsomely to stay on the cutting edge.
I dearly love our Model S despite not having power mirrors, parking sensors, auto-pilot, the ionizer or the dozens of other improvements that have been introduced since we bought her. Instead of worrying about how we're missing out, I tend to reflect on the array of pure software features that have materialized since our purchase. GPS-aware air suspension was one of the first features I wrote ownership to request when we got the car, and now it's a reality. Care to guess how many other vehicles we've owned have had comparable features added following our initial purchase?
We've been so impressed by the ownership experience that we're seriously contemplating taking the plunge with the Model X next year. We just need to make sure there's actually room in the garage for both!�
Oct 13, 2014
EarlyAdopter I think this is indicative of who's in the market for a Tesla now, the difference between the kind of person who will pay $60k - $90k for a car vs. the kind of person who will pay $130k for a car.
It's almost a shame Tesla built such an amazing car, as it sure has recently attracted a crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves. Somehow, I don't think these people care one lick about Tesla's greater mission.
Sigh.�
Oct 13, 2014
AnxietyRanger Tesla fanboys out in full force it seems.
That's about as fair as calling people "crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves".
Come on people. It is different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months compared to a guy who got his "old normal" delivery after the "new normal" came. Making self-driving car standard and delivering it to some but not others around a similar time was bigger than usual change.
Have a little heart.�
Oct 13, 2014
brkaus Considering a purchase sometime in the future...
I look at it as best case, have to calculate the ownership cost based on the guaranteed value purchase plan and make my decision from that data.
Typical case, car is worth $12-$20k in 10 years.
Worst case, have to consider the car could be worth $0 very quickly given the relatively short track record. This of course will improve as there is more data on the car and the manufacturer.�
Oct 13, 2014
Krugerrand Have you missed the part where all these fanboys have already experienced the exact same thing? It is not different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months, except that they've chosen to a have a positive attitude and be thankful for what they do have.�
Oct 13, 2014
EarlyAdopter I do, for people who are seriously impacted, injured, or wronged. None of that has happened here. None.
I'd in turn ask people to "Have a little perspective," because things sure got skewed quickly around here.
For example, this guy had every right to gripe because he got completely screwed and ignored by Porsche, yet still managed to keep his wit and humility the whole time: Nick Murrays problematic Porsche 911 shows the power of a viral video - Autoblog�
Oct 13, 2014
breser Yes that's totally why I spent the better part of the day showing the car to college students doing a section on Electric Vehicles in their Intro to Engineering class today and a few hours doing the same on Thursday. Because I don't care a lick about Tesla's mission. (sarcasm)
Being disappointed in Tesla's execution does not imply not seeing the vision and believing.�
Oct 13, 2014
AnxietyRanger Besides, Tesla is no charity either. Let's not treat them as such.�
Oct 13, 2014
EarlyAdopter Indeed they are no charity. In order to achieve their goal they need to make a profit and keep sales up. That Gigafactory ain't going to build itself. Last I checked, Tesla needed to make a cool $3B in profits on Model S and X sales to realize that.
Pre-announcing changes in the line, particularly ones that will be included for no charge, is a sure fire way to kill the business. No success in business, no success in electrifying transport.
- - - Updated - - -
That's awesome to hear! Thank you for doing that! So there is something, many things, that excite you about the car, Tesla, and EVs beyond the features that were announced after you got your car. Hold on to that. Focus on that. That's what matters. That's why a month ago you were willing to buy a car that didn't have autopilot features.
Fair enough. Point taken. I just haven't seen that come across in any of the complaint threads on Autopilot or The D like I did back when folks got hit with the A to B battery change over, missed out on P+ (yours truly), or those real troopers, the Sigs.�
Oct 13, 2014
Beavis My girl may have a few miles on her but she still looks better than any of her younger sisters. Sig Red is forever.�
Oct 13, 2014
breser I've given plenty of suggestions for how to handle this better, including ones that make Tesla more money. Simply adding this as an option from June or so until October and then removing it as an option after that would have made them money and given people some pause on changing orders to get it. Could have even made it a fairly expensive option. Come October, Elon could have gone "Ohh and one more thing, Autopilot has proven so popular we've made the hardware standard on all vehicles starting with new orders." Customers, in queue deal with the DS to fix their in queue orders. People who paid grumble, but hey they got the feature. People who didn't order and didn't pay wish they'd waited, but if this mattered to them they could have paid. The grumbling would be tiny in comparison because it'd be a price drop (don't see a ton of people grumbling about the price drops from Thursday). Tesla comes off looking awesome because they managed to make an option into something standard. This also happens to solve the problem of some people getting cars with sensors that want clean bumpers (surprised nobody has complained about that yet, though I've seen people mention this in the past).�
Oct 13, 2014
golfski But a Tesla fanboy is more likely to not care about a mishandling like this, because, um, they're a fanboy
I didn't even get the tech package, but had I, and I heard they were delivering all of this new hardware for free on cars without the tech package (as reported by some) at the same time they were building mine and decided I was on the bad side of the draw, I would be very pissed. I don't know why they couldn't just demo it during the "D" event and say all cars starting X days from now had the option to put it on if they wanted to pay for the new tech package. That at least draws a line in the sand. However, they just start putting it on, it got leaked (how couldn't it, it's physical differences in the car) and they were silent for a couple of weeks, leaving many wondering if they were going to get it.
The AWD changes are just a new "trim" of an existing model and I can't fault them for what they did there. Anyone interested in Tesla has known the potential for AWD for a while. I talked about it with my salesperson and the timing just wasn't known. Now its known, and its a 2-5 months away. Remember, thats Tesla time...who knows if they are even ready to start production, they are not promising any deliveries until "December", which can easily become Jan/Feb/March.�
Oct 13, 2014
Krugerrand They may be more likely to not agree that it was a mishandling at all, since they understand what Tesla is all about. :wink:
Off the top of my head, one reason would be because to have cars available to be demonstrated at the D event they'd have had to put the hardware into the production line several days prior to the event. Which is exactly what they did. But to fulfill your request, they'd have had to stop production of all customer cars for the number of days it would have taken to set up the line, build the demo cars, and wait for the unveil. Then after the unveil, wait for several more days for customers to make their decisions before starting up the production line again. Does that sound like a good idea? Especially considering this happened near the end of a quarter where they'd already been shut down for an extended period due to rebuilding the production line for greater build capacity and risked missing their guidance to the satisfaction of the unsavory sorts and the dissatisfaction of investors.
While on the surface the suggestions being offered by some for how this should have been dealt with seem reasonable, they are clearly suggestions from people who a) have no experience in car manufacturing, b) don't understand what Tesla is about, c) don't understand what Tesla is trying to do, d) don't understand how tech like this works and advances, or e) really are all about themselves.�
Oct 14, 2014
golfski I am not sure where I implied they would have to stop production. Handle it like they did the "D". Unveil it at a demo, months before they are actually putting it into production and allow those to adjust their orders or at least understand when it will start shipping and decide to wait if they really want it (i.e. cancel and lose deposit or delay delivery). The issue that most people have is that it was rolled out before the announcement was made, randomly, and left some people on the unlucky side of the draw. Imagine you and I ordered a S85 with the exact same config and yours got built on 9/17 and mine got build on 9/18. I end up with all this extra stuff and you don't. In one day, your car is worth a good bit less on than mine on the open market for sale (or at least harder to move). We paid the same thing. Is that fair to you? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy or at the very least disappointed. I think that what also makes this one hurt even more (along with the "D") is that this also fell at the end of a crucial quarter for them, they ramped up delivery and moved as many cars as possible, leaving even more people on the wrong side of this "continuous improvement" cycle.
Everyone talks about how Tesla is doing it better. I am not sure they are doing it better, they are doing it different. There are Pros and Cons to the way Tesla is doing it compared to the way other manufacturers are doing it, but no one is perfect. The whole "not understanding what Tesla is about or trying to do" nonsense isn't much of an argument when your trying to expand customer base outside the "fanboy" segment. Is Tesla doing its customers a service by rushing orders at the end of the quarter, sacrificing quality for the sake of making its numbers to please the market?
I love my Model S and could (mostly) care less about all the gizmos, I'm just saying, I certainly think some people got the unlucky side of the draw.�
Oct 14, 2014
mhan00 Except for the people who optioned out the new features and paid for them would be pissed and calling for a refund, especially those who placed orders days or weeks before the announcement. The complaining now is also a minor hiccup that encompasses a small portion of owners who bought cars close to the nebulous cut off date as Tesla was upgrading their lines. The only change your scenario would changed was the subset of owners complaining, and your scenario would have in fact actually screwed the people who opted to pay more for the features whereas the way Tesla handled it there were just a lucky few who got the features for free.�
Oct 14, 2014
AnxietyRanger None of those apply to me. Having bought tons of factory-order cars I also know the debate is not unique to Tesla.
That doesn't mean the debate isn't useful and warranted. It is. And more so, as a community, I think could and should do better for the likes of breser in our response. Tesla the company isn't the only one deserving our sympathy.
And yes, even Tesla the company can do wrong sometimes.�
Oct 14, 2014
dsm363 What about those that entered production the very day before the unveiling of the new product? They would also be very upset and ask for some kind of grace period. I do think an introduction after the quarter rush would be much better.�
Oct 14, 2014
mknox I agree completely with the sentiment, but the old "if you can afford this, then you can afford that" statement really bugs me. For a lot of people, and I'll include myself in this lot, the very fact that I was able to spend this amount of money on the car is precisely why I can't afford certain other things. The money pool isn't infinite, and prioritization has to occur.�
Oct 14, 2014
Chuck P85D "The things you own end up owning you."
~ Tyler Durden�
Oct 14, 2014
Gynob001 Here is my 100C worth ....
I hate when manufacturers sell "upgrades": and newer products before the "old" ones haven't yet become obselete.
I will retire in a few years and I bought the Model S85 as my potentially last car as I don't have any intention of driving beyond a golf cart when I retire.
Is there a need for the "D"? Is automatic driving the ultimate "driving experience"? Would I be satisfied by just being a passenger?
If Hydrogen fuel cars become the future would that appeal to Tesla drivers? I am assuming that the electricity/battery mode of Tesla is not the main motive of Tesla purchase. Would some of us complain that it is unfair that others are developing other fuel driven cars?
If I have want to throw my money for a "D" upgrade, I will consider a good charity first. The emotional satisfaction will last long after D is gone beyond E,F,G......�
Oct 14, 2014
golfski I don't think there is a perfect answer, but I think that situation is more expected. If just in production, they could decide to walk away from the $2500 deposit if its that important and re-order, but definitely still some people left out that just took delivery that day or day(s) before. But, I think people are more accustomed to understanding this upgrade cycle when you know about it in advance of it coming out and having to wait for it to ship, not just having it start shipping with cars 20 days before the official announcement. Tesla drew a line in the sand (Sept 19), while they were still trying to convince as many customers as possible to move up their delivery and/or buy a loaner, but didn't announce it until 20 days later after the quarter rush.�
Oct 14, 2014
cpa Tesla made conscious business decisions to "buck the trend" in selling cars. They do not have inventory. They do not have "franchised dealers." They do not have discrete model years. They have chosen to bootstrap growth via sales of high-end premium automobiles, using hoped-for increased sales to generate enough cash flow to expand. They market their cars through word-of-mouth, Supercharging, excellent customer service, and the media. Demand outstrips supply for the nonce.
I gather from many of the views expressed on this and other threads that many posters are directly or indirectly involved in the technology fields. You are experts in understanding how technology evolves, the speed in which it evolves, and the seemingly infinite variations that can result. Others may not be directly involved, but consider technology as an avocation, and follow advances and enhancements regularly.
It seems as if there is a minority (like me) who does not understand technology, does not know what is popular, better, trending, or obsolete. I dumped a 1995 Mustang GT Convertible with 135,000 miles on it to buy the S85. I have never driven a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or any other high-end automobile. I am accustomed to the anachronistic dealer franchise business model to purchase cars where upgrades are separated by model year and badge, and dealers carry inventory on their lots.
Tesla has chosen to do thing differently (and I believe, better.) However, that does not mean that they can change a century-old business model overnight without experiencing some customer satisfaction issues. The question that I ask, and that others seem to ask, is, "Did Tesla anticipate the potential backlash with what they did, and were they prepared for it?" My initial answer to this question is that it never even crossed their minds. If that is true, therein lies the disappointment and frustration.
As sales skyrocket with the release of the affordable Model III, more of the common and ignorant public will embrace Tesla. If continued upgrades and enhancements are unveiled in the same style as last week's D, customer satisfaction among the hoi polloi will plummet. And, I believe that Elon Musk's stated goal is to put affordable BEVs within the reach of everyone.
I was not affected with this announcement, and I wouldn't have cared had I been. But I do have some feeling for those on the cusp who liken their situation to the grifter's "bait and switch."�
Oct 14, 2014
green1 This is the opposite of bait and switch. The "Bait" part is the promise, the "switch" part is when the promise is not the same as what is delivered. In this case the complaint is actually that these people "only" got what they were promised. That is not "Bait and switch" If anything the "victims" of bait and switch are those that got the free sensors, and somehow I haven't seen a single one of them complaining.�
Oct 14, 2014
Krugerrand I'm not sure where you didn't understand that to do what you suggested required they stop production of all customer cars.
If they thought it prudent to handle it like the 'D', do you not think that's what they'd have done?
Have you been on the factory tour? Are you privvy to information that no one else is, such that you'd know what was economically and efficiently production better for Tesla than Tesla themselves? Are you under the impression that Elon Musk is just making this up as he goes along?
No. More accurately a small select group of vocal people have an issue. The vast majority do not.
You're looking to the wrong person for a sympathetic ear. I, in no way, think like you do where cars are concerned. I'm not looking to buy a car to sell it a year or two or a few down the road. If I was of that mind, I'd lease. I inherently know that the very second I drive that new car off the lot, I just threw a whole stack of greenbacks out the window. And what happens to the market for that car after that, it often up for grabs. Therefore, to get the return on my very poor investment, I drive that sucker until the wheels fall off.
While I consider fairness to be a very important attribute, I understand that sometimes life just isn't fair and so I don't concern myself with what other people got that I didn't. It's petty and makes you ugly inside. I focus on being grateful for what I have. I'd be happy for you that you got some freebies, knowing that down the road I'll get my due. I don't mess with Karma.
There's no indication that quality of vehicle is suffering. What gets 'rushed' is deliveries, not production. That rushing may indeed have caused some customers to have a less than ideal experience when picking up the car either because of a tired or stressed DS. To date, I only recall seeing one post on that topic and it was perfectly within that person's capabilities to ask for additional assistance, which they did not do, before driving off in their car. I'm quite sure the DS would have accomodated them.�
Oct 14, 2014
jerry33 That happens with every high-tech item. There are always going to be people who bought at the wrong time. I'm sure they know about it, and there's little that can be done other than never change the product. There are only a few ways to be totally satisfied with any high-tech product:
1. Buy the best you can afford, and then never look at an ad, read a review, or go to a forum until the high-tech item no longer does what you want it to do. As an example, if you bought the original iPhone on day 1, EOL is when the iPhone 4 came out because the original iPhone won't run the newer programs fast enough. The iPhone 4 is EOL at iPhone 6 for the same reason.
2. Dispose of your current high-tech item when something new comes out. (This only works if you are very wealthy, so ti's not practical for many.)
3. Accept that if you can buy it, it's already obsolete, so there will always be something better/faster/cheaper in a couple of weeks, and don't stress over it.�
Oct 14, 2014
breser Agreed there's no indication that quality of the vehicle suffered. There has been plenty of indication that customer service suffered. There were a fair amount of people that had issues with their DS during September. I remember the one you're referring to, but there were also people like me where the DS wouldn't return their messages. I suspect that this is what the person you're replying to is referring to, not vehicle quality. None of this is really related to the Autopilot roll out, but that's another case of less than stellar customer service. Even if you don't think the way they handled adding the sensors, the lack of knowledge about this by their staff was pretty poor. For example, there was one posted that told how when taking delivery of a vehicle with the new features and the delivery people not knowing really what they did and telling the customer to read the manual.�
Oct 14, 2014
Lerxt Once again, this has been done very poorly by Tesla. Every car delivered after the announcement should have the AP equipment. If you had ordered the car a year ago had to wait while some customers who ordered only had to wait for 2 months and Tesla skipped 8000 vins to boost quarterly results, you'd likely be upset if they improved equipment and you missed out. There are many people in this situation. How long should someone have to wait while others take delivery ahead of you?
Tesla could easily have said that on Jan 1 all new cars have the upgraded equipment, all customers have the option to convert their orders to the new specs. That simple act would have not upset anyone, would have been fair and would have been easily doable. It's time for the surly agressiveness to stop and some sensible understanding of another's position to take place.�
Oct 14, 2014
Krugerrand It is true that sometimes (perhaps often?), there are frontline employees that do not know everything that's going on at the factory or HQ, or what's coming down the pipeline. That can be a tough situation for those employees to handle, especially if they are young, new to Tesla, or just simply don't have a lot of life experience. There is a way to deal with that within the scope of the job and not stick your neck out, lie, or have customers cross with you. Maybe Tesla needs to send those employees to a few courses and seminars on how to deal effectively?
Customer: What are those dohickey things on the bumper?
DS: To be honest, I haven't got a clue. I am sure, though, that in the weeks going forward the answer will be revealed. Can I contact you when I find out?
Customer: Sure.
DS: And if you find out before me, will you call me? (LOL)
There are several very good reasons why those employees don't know everything, starting with the fact that Tesla is innovating and expanding at such a high velocity that it's next to impossible to keep everyone informed. Then there's been past information leaks that have caused turmoil, so that information stream has been essentially turned off and is on a need to know basis only - and they don't need to know in the opinion of those making that decision at the upper level. Perhaps that will change one day.�
Oct 14, 2014
mitch672 There is NO solution to this issue. If they pre-announce the availabiliy of new options, they end up "Osbourning" the company, even if they did annouce new options, there will always be people who's car went into production a day or two before the announcement. Believe me, I have experienced this personally. My Model S didn't have parking sensors, power folding mirrors, winter package, availble when I ordered... it also weighs several hundred pounds more than later production Model S's. My consolation is I have been driving the car for 22 months, with 21,000 miles put on it, and it was less expensive than the newer models. FYI, I did contact Tesla about a trade-in: $55K offered on my $90K price paid (subtract out the $7,500 federal tax credit received, I paid $82.5K)
Osborne Effect: Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia�
Oct 14, 2014
breser Totally agree with this. From the thread when the sensor first showed up, I can tell you people got a lot of wrong answers from Tesla employees. It would have been better for them to have just said "I don't know," to their customers and found out.
This I just can't agree with. When delivering a $100k car, there's really not a lot of excuse for an employee not knowing the product. I'm sure there will be little mistakes (the woman that did my demonstration told me I didn't get Slacker since I didn't order the upgraded sound system, clearly she was confusing Slacker and XM). If the person doing the delivery doesn't know there should be someone they can ask quickly that will know the answer to any question. Tesla shouldn't be putting their employees in a position of not being able to answer such questions. I hope they learn this and handle roll outs better.�
Oct 14, 2014
Krugerrand It's not a matter of agreeing or not. That's the way it is. It's a fact.
Get back to me when you run a company the size, scope and speed of Tesla, and then we can have an informative and accurate discussion about keeping employees abreast of information, as well as controlling how they disseminate that information. And quality of knowledge is not directly attached to the price of a product.�
Oct 14, 2014
breser I didn't say it was easy. But in my opinion if you've put your employees in the position of delivering something that hasn't been announced, then you've failed at handling corporate communications. There's a huge art to making sure employees have the right information at the right time. I have great respect for the people that manage those things. But I'm not going to give Tesla a pass just because it's hard.
Customer expectations are certainly attached to the price of the product.
You don't get to tell me I can't have an opinion about something because I'm not running a company like Tesla. I can just as easily dismiss your opinion with such assumptions. Neither of us know each others backgrounds. I'd much rather discuss things on the merits than trying to dismiss each other based on such presumptions like this.�
Oct 14, 2014
Chuck P85D this entire website is the epitome of "1st World Problems".
as you were......�
Oct 14, 2014
dsm363 But Tesla is including the hardware in every single car built, right? So you would have Tesla give people three months notice so they could cancel their orders? That might leave Tesla with very few cars to build until Jan 1st while everyone waits for the new free sensors.�
Oct 14, 2014
golfski Ok. There is obviously no convincing you that Tesla can do any wrong, or have any room for improvement. They make all the right moves and only do it the best way possible. I get it
While Tesla is certainly a pretty awesome company that is making a ground breaking product, there is always room for improvement. I have nothing to prove to you, whether I know what I am talking about or not (you know, since I don't run a company of that size and level of innovation, so I will get back to you when that happens!), it's just my opinion.
You have no idea how I think about cars. I have no plans to sell my car in a year or two. Like you, I bought it to run it into the ground, which actually makes it financially reasonable to some degree compared to other cars I would have owned. But, its still a $70,000 - 120,000 car, when people on forums like this know more than the employees delivering the cars, thats a problem (in my opinion). How about innovating in that aspect of the business as well?�
Oct 14, 2014
Krugerrand What did they have to deliver that hadn't been announced? Some extra stuff showed up on a few cars that some staff didn't know about, but nobody was delivering it or expected to deliver it. Shrug shoulders, say you don't have a clue, carry on.
The CEO has decided things are going to be this way (at least for now). He told the world that very thing not too long ago. He has reasons for doing it. Feel free to disagree with him.
I said nothing of customer expectations being attached to the price of the product. I said, and I quote: "Quality of knowledge is not directly attached to the price of a product."
I didn't actually say you couldn't have an opinion. What I said was...oh, never mind.
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I believe nothing of the sort.�
Oct 14, 2014
AnxietyRanger Three months notice is hardly the only solution Tesla could have offered, though. What irks, I think, a lot of people who look at this critically is the seeming inability of some to discuss any measures Tesla might have made differently. Like there isn't anything they could have done differently with breser, for example. (Of course perhaps Tesla will still do something to fix it for likes of breser, whose order was pushed forward by Tesla causing him to miss out.)
There are many alternatives between that and shutting down the factory for three months.
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Ain't that the truth.
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But the fact of the matter is, many other high-tech items do offer some solutions for this problem.
Here are some examples of what manufacturers of high-tech items have done:
- Offer retroactive discounts to those preceding the cut-off date who bought within some trimeframe.
- Returns policies.
- Pricing guarantees for changed prices.
- Delivery of upgraded product/feature for free to older deliveries made within some timeframe.
- Upgrade/swap offers.
There is a reason why this is done - customer satisfaction is important to companies. There is plenty Tesla could innovate in this area and judging by the backlash, perhaps they should have done something like that here. Say, discount non-AutoPilot cars, on request if you file a complaint, for some period to alleviate frustrations within people who are just taking delivery - or heck, give them a voucher for the Tesla accessory store for some amount, maybe offer them a free center console or something. That alone might feel like a great gesture when changes of this magnitude are introduced in the standard equipment and would offset a little of that depreciation the change caused.
This is just one idea. I'm sure the innovative people at Tesla could come up with even more impressive solutions were they to put their minds to it.
I'm not saying this needs to be done every time something changes. But adding self-driving car as standard is pretty big. Listening to disappointed customers and offering something back might be a wise thing in this case.
Disclaimer: I am not affected or concerned by this personally. I am waiting for the Model X and my lot P85 is just a stop-gap (well, I guess it may depreciate a little, but I'm not concerned about that personally). But I have bought a lot of factory cars previously with rolling changes made into them and I know a lot about customer experiences. This was a big change by any measure and probably deserves more attention than most changes.�
Oct 15, 2014
GravitySpec I'm right there with you. All I can do is save up my money and watch as the price drops and the amount of features continue to improve.
One day... one day...�
Oct 15, 2014
breser Cars were being delivered to customers that had the sensors and active lane departure and speed assist features. Part of delivering a car is going over the features and how things work with a customer. Surely you understand what I meant.
It's news to me if Elon has said anything about this situation.
No but I did. I said that I expect for a $100k car that the employees be knowledgeable about it. I find it really hard to believe that most customers don't think that Tesla employees delivering the cars should know about the features they're delivering.
Not directly, but the implication was until I had the experience that you listed off (of which you have no idea if I have or not) that you didn't want to hear my opinion. You of course have a very easy solution to that problem. Don't read my posts. For whatever reason you've decided not to avail yourself of that solution. So telling me what you told me was essentially telling me to shut up.�
Oct 15, 2014
forcey I thought I was impacted most by having a car delivered 1 week before they start installing these sensors... but you guys' stories are making me feel better. Much better
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Oh well. Mine was delivered Sept 20th after a few delays. I see what they are doing...�
Oct 16, 2014
mknox Since you asked... my March 2013 car came with an A-pack while I know of several February 2013 cars (i.e. before mine) that came with B-packs. But only because you asked :wink:�
Oct 16, 2014
yobigd20 Yep. And I'm one of those feb 2013 cars with the B pack�
Oct 19, 2014
huntjo I have supercharged maybe ten times total. It is fast, convenient and very free. I haven't looked at my battery, but am fairly certain it is an A pack. I have never noticed any decreased pleasure in the supercharging experience, and don't feel the need to check my battery in hopes I might avoid unnecessary disappointment.�
Oct 19, 2014
GeekGirls The B rollout was even more staggered than that. I picked up mine in December 2012 with a "B" pack and have since verified that it does indeed charge at the faster rate. I understand the sense of disappointment attached to missing out on ongoing improvements. Communication here could certainly be improved, but I think it only rises to an actionable level in those rare cases where Tesla didn't deliver what was promised at the time the vehicle configuration was confirmed and locked in. Beyond that, I'd rather Tesla continued to push the envelope and make the best car they can. That way my next Tesla is guaranteed to be absolutely amazing.
I'm just waiting for the inevitable outcry when new vehicles arrive with better connectivity and touchscreen performance than the current 3G + Tegra 2 chipset level. I suspect that's going to happen with the Model X rollout and seems certain to show up in the Model S in a similar timeframe.�
Oct 19, 2014
mknox Is your car a Performance model by any chance? Those people I know who got B-packs before my car came with it's A were all Performance models (mine is a non-Performance version). I wonder if Tesla prioritized the P cars for the early B-packs for some reason??? If so, I wonder what that reason might be?�
Oct 19, 2014
yobigd20 I think we tried to track this but came to no conclusion as there were some random standards with B packs too.�
Oct 19, 2014
GeekGirls It is not. It's a standard 85 delivered when they were trying to get as many California cars as possible into Q4 for whatever reason. We had originally been told to expect it in March the next year, but we had ordered it while living in Washington and when we told them we had moved to California it mysteriously showed up months ahead of time. They called to say we could pick it up on December 26th, making for a nice late Christmas present that year.�
Oct 19, 2014
jchangyy
I got mine at the end of Feb/2013 and I got an A pack. Wonder if I got one of the last of the A packs. anyway, I'm just waiting for it to fail any day now so i can get a B pack. I can only hope.
Many of you mentioned here that you would not trade your current models for the newer one if it meant you had to wait. Had I known what improvements were coming only 1.5 to 2 years from my purchase date, I would have waited. Except, I had no idea, so I can't blame Tesla. Many of us are still used to traditional upgrade cycles (every 3-4 years with refresh), where you can expect when the newer models will come with changes. It'll take time for people to get used to Tesla upgrade system. Or maybe they can batch certain hardware upgrades by model year but constantly do the software upgrades as they currently do.
Just my 2 cents�
Oct 20, 2014
mknox Well, I got my A-Pack in March, so I've got you beat there. For me, the slight difference in Supercharging capability is a minor inconvenience, but I have lost just under 10% of my capacity at about 35,000 miles. I've tried all the "tricks" (Range Charge / deplete a few times; charge regularly to 90% etc.) and only recovered 3 miles.
Yeah, I was far enough away from any significant upgrades that I am not as bothered as some over this. There will always be "the next best thing" and at some point you just have to pull the trigger.
I've been thinking a lot about Tesla's continuum of improvements vs. the traditional model year changes. I've seen a lot of the early adopters and Tesla enthusiast (a group in which I include myself) kind of defending Tesla's approach, but I really think they will have to deal with this as their cars move beyond the enthusiasts and in to the mainstream. The purchase of a car, not to mention an expensive car, is a big deal for a lot of folks, and to have just missed out on an unannounced improvement really can be a bitter pill to swallow. It's different when you buy a 2014 car mid-year, then the even better 2015's come out. You kind of expect that. Even if Tesla eschews the traditional model year approach, it might be wise for them to consider something like the Apple philosophy where everyone "knows" the new iPhone will be announced in September. Keep doing the software updates that everyone can benefit from, but save the big hardware stuff for a once a year announcement at a time when people are expecting it. If they don't do something like this, the mainstream Model 3 buyers are going to be really confused.�
Oct 20, 2014
Larry93428 With the hated dealership system there is an inventory of cars; often the current year's and next year's are both offered: One with a "Huge Blow-out Discount" and one "All New For 21XX" available for consideration. The buyer does have a choice there, with the improvements demonstrated of course by a salesperson. Until Tesla gets an inventory built up - may it never happen - we will take what we can get.
The arrival of Tesla, the world's first successful electric car, is so like the early days of Volkswagen where there was a waiting list and prices controlled by the seller.�
Oct 20, 2014
rlang59 I think this is the issue is at the heart of what we are currently seeing. Tesla is starting to sell into non-enthusiasts and they are not as forgiving as we early adopters have been.�
Oct 20, 2014
jerry33 Mine is not a performance and it came with a B pack.�
Oct 20, 2014
GeekGirls Doing what your customers think they want is rarely a sound strategy for doing more than merely coasting. There's a lot more historical precedent for success when a company builds something that upsets a lot of apple carts but proves to be irresistible, often counter to conventional wisdom. People complain all the time about the pace at which new hardware and software is released by some of the most successful companies in the world.�
Oct 20, 2014
rlang59 As long as Tesla is counting on their customers to be their advertising they have to try to do things that don't anger them. I don't have an answer to what they should or shouldn't be doing different, none of us do, I just think that they would be foolish to ignore the current stink that has been raised by these new customers.�
Oct 20, 2014
AmpedRealtor It would cost me over $10,000 more to get the P85 configuration that I bought in August of 2013. And yes, for that additional $10k I would have received autopilot function. In a parallel world where I was ordering today and prices were the same as 15 months ago, but the autopilot suite cost $10k extra, I would never pay such a premium for that feature. If I were to sell my existing car, I'd lose the depreciation PLUS would have to pay another $10k extra to build the same car today that I had last year (plus Autopilot, which cannot be removed). I didn't get to a position of being able to buy a Model S by making such bad financial choices.�
Oct 20, 2014
Krugerrand I'm not sure Tesla were ever specifically counting on their customers to be their advertising. It just turned out that way because the cars are so great. In the meantime, there may already be enough people with a Tesla and those wanting one in the future to keep it going regardless of a few who are currently upset. Adding the free publicity they got when they won car award after car award (and there's already an expectation of many awards for the Model X), the free publicity they get every time NADA, politicians or a state try to block their sales, the free publicity they get from the media, Elon interviews and tweets, and so on.�
Oct 20, 2014
dsm363 And the number of people angered by updates has to be a small percentage of total deliveries. Some who were affected don't care and realize that's that happens with new things coming out. Others care a lot.�
Oct 20, 2014
rlang59 True, but the ones that are unhappy are always the loudest.
All I'm saying is that I think Tesla can do better and I'm sure they will next time.�
Oct 20, 2014
All Your Bases As I understand it, the sensor HW got rolled out to ensure high European safety ratings. This makes the add-on a business priority for the company, and as such an important step for both current and new owners. We are all reliant on the success of the company, and it's ability to attract new customers to continue build-out of charging and keeping a great service level.
What people need, is to take a step back, remember the excitement when you ordered your configuration, and do what you intended at that time; own and drive it for the amount of time you had planned.
I guaranty you, nobody gets a fair price when the market gets more or less overloaded with used P85+, the current hype around sensors and dual engine WILL die down, and fair trade-in and used prices restored. It is still an awesome car, and will remain so for years!
And, in the end, all owners WILL miss out of something.�
Oct 21, 2014
AudubonB BEAR with me while I hijack this thread for a mo. I couldn't help the delicious juxtaposition of the thread's title with this, coming from the "Alaska Problems" feed - "Why Packages in Alaska Don't Get Delivered On Time":
�
Oct 21, 2014
gene Actually, this is from Canada. It says "Canada Post".�
Oct 21, 2014
AudubonB Yeah, yeah. We'uns in Alaska can't get cameras delivered to us, so we have to rely on photos from down south to get our points across. Third-Fourth World problems, donchaknow?
/hijack�
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