Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 Now that Tesla has the CHAdeMO adapter available, I think it makes sense for them to offer one free adapter to businesses that offer free CHAdeMO charging, in a program similar to the Destination Charging program. In the Destination Charging program, Tesla provides one or more HPWCs in exchange for the business paying to install them and paying for the electricity. The CHAdeMO adapters cost less, and the CHAdeMO chargers charge faster. The business is already paying for the electricity. So if the Destination Charging program makes sense, and I think it does, then I think the idea of giving away some CHAdeMO adapters also makes sense.
There is already a thread dedicated to people lending each other CHAdeMO adapters here:
CHAdeMO Adapter Sharing ZeeMap
And people in some of the referral threads are talking about using the money from referrals to pay for CHAdeMO adapters and then donating those adapters. It was from one of those posts that I came up with this idea, as frankly I did not realize there were a lot of businesses providing free CHAdeMO charging.
Tesla owners who will have frequent need of CHAdeMO chargers obviously should just buy a CHAdeMO adapter. But there is clearly some need for rare or occasional use, as evidenced by the CHAdeMO lending thread. I really think it would be a good idea for Tesla to look into giving away some CHAdeMO adapters, under the right circumstances.�
Aug 9, 2015
stevezzzz That makes way too much sense, Andyw2100; I like the idea. I'm surprised it hasn't been proposed before...�
Aug 9, 2015
SW2Fiddler I agree that an adapter "stationed" at a free, convenient station is many times more useful than one that spends 99% of the time "frunk-locked."
I'm one of the referral donation people, maybe the only one so far, and I have chosen Rouses Market in New Orleans, LA as a recipient if I can get a taker on my code. They seem really Tesla-friendly per the PlugShare reviews.
Rick (aka "Rick3466")�
Aug 9, 2015
deonb That makes a lot of sense, but are there really free Chademo stations available? I've never seen one.�
Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 It was your post that gave me the idea.�
Aug 9, 2015
ThosEM Outstandingly sensible idea! Why hasn't Tesla thought of that first?�
Aug 9, 2015
SW2Fiddler [emoji4]
We have thru October to use referrals to "make Tesla provide free adapters."
I actually found a Nissan dealer with a free, after-hours-available CHAdeMO and a good attitude - Temple TX. Bit close to Waco SC though.
And... ATC Drivetrain North was someplace I thought would be a good location, even before the Referral promo... but the OKC Supercharger opened.�
Aug 9, 2015
PaulusdB There is even a case in Tesla Motors supplying one adapter free (or at cost) to ANY Chademo station that applies for it. More kW supplied by them is less kW supplied by the SuperChargers.�
Aug 9, 2015
jerry33 It makes a lot of sense, but the CHAdeMO equipped businesses (Are there any businesses other than Nissan dealers that have them?--not talking about public charging locations, SunCountry, or similar, just actual businesses with CHAdeMO installed.) will have to have a procedure checking them in and out.�
Aug 9, 2015
SW2Fiddler Like, holding your Keyfob during your session. Yeah.
edit: In case of a really desirable location, with super-limited hours, or unwilling to keep an adapter behind the counter, I was entertaining the thought of locking the adapter in a locker or box with a combination. It's all these years of GeoCaching experience coming out perhaps.�
Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 The place that SW2Fiddler mentioned--Rouses Market in New Orleans--has one, and is open 24 X 7, assuming SW2Fiddler's information is correct. I was piggybacking off his idea of donating one. Whether individuals donate them or Tesla does wouldn't matter, as either way there needs to be a method in place to check them in and out. I was thinking something along the lines of leaving your driver's license and possibly a credit card, but I guess some people may be unwilling to do that. I think that should be a relatively simple hurdle to overcome for a business open 24 X 7.
I'm really not sure how this could work, as a Tesla owner given the combination could still make off with the adapter, if that was his or her intention. I think the adapter would probably have to only be available during the hours the business was open. Whatever notes Tesla includes with the information about the charging location, assuming they started including this info the way they include destination charging info, would have to include the location's hours of operation when the adapter would be available, as well as additional hours, if appropriate, when CHAdeMO charging was available, but only if you brought your own adapter.�
Aug 9, 2015
TexasEV This seems like too much of a burden for the business hosting a CHAdeMO station (such as Rouses Market, to use this example). It's enough that they have to keep the station operating, which seems to be an issue if you read the comments on Plugshare. We should be thankful for businesses that host stations, and even more thankful that when they're free, without expecting them to manage an adapter for us. CHAdeMO use should be BYOA (bring your own adapter).�
Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 We could, hopefully, make it worth their while. For example, people who needed to borrow the adapter would, I'd hope, make sure to purchase things. And perhaps it could become customary for those people to tip the person working the sign out log a few bucks. If the business knew that managing this free adapter was going to mean both more business, and some tip money in some of their employees' pockets, for what would amount to a trivial amount of work once a system was in place, I would hope they would be amenable to the idea.�
Aug 9, 2015
SW2Fiddler The CHAdeMO station is 24/7, but Rouses' published store hours are 6Am to midnight.
I've reached out to Jeremy, their manager, thru PlugShare to see if they would be amenable to even considering it.
Owners absconding with the adapter: PlugShare contact info, such as with private plugs, could be online so a combination would be conveyed verbally and the borrower known I suppose. Good discussion.�
Aug 9, 2015
stopcrazypp Would some kind of security cable work? Something that can be unattended would be ideal.�
Aug 9, 2015
SW2Fiddler I thought something appropriate for a $450 bicycle would do. However. Would the owner/vendor of the physical station potentially have a problem with attachment I wonder.�
Aug 9, 2015
scott2613 We have a 50kW CHAdeMO/CCS as well as an 80A HPWC and 75A J-1772. They are all free and we have an adaptor available free during business hours.
Because we are located just west of Milwaukee off I-94 they are getting used frequently. It probably helps that they are always working too.
PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find the nearest location to charge your electric car!
�
Aug 9, 2015
David99 All of that just because Tesla stubbornly refuses to support any common standard. They had to do their own thing. Twice already (Roadster plug). At least in Europe Tesla comes with a commonly used plug.�
Aug 9, 2015
stopcrazypp Not sure how this applies to DC charging. You can make a case about the Roadster not using the J1772 given the specs are largely the same (although it was not ready yet by the time the Roadster came out), however, I don't see how CHAdeMO applies. As a standard it is a horrible one for Tesla to adopt. The power levels are much lower, it's huge, and it can only do DC charging.
I'll once again point out that CHAdeMO was a completely closed proprietary standard while the Model S was being developed. It didn't become a Japanese standard until late 2012 and an international IEC standard until 2014.
Even in Europe, the Tesla socket doesn't work for CCS (which is the DC standard) and it also still needs an adapter for CHAdeMO.�
Aug 9, 2015
Oba The current J1772-2009/2010 standard didn't even exist for the Roadster, and neither did the CCS-Combo series. Therefore, it would be a bit difficult for them to use, no? Yes, CHAdeMO existed, however the standard is currently designed for 200 amps (CCS is also 200 amp limited). The Tesla Supercharger already pump out 370 amps. CCS uses a patented communication method that neither Tesla Supercharger, nor CHAdeMO use (they both use common CAN bus messaging).
In addition, J1772 / Type 1 is limited to 30 amps (and still is worldwide), so Tesla petitioned the SAE to make US J1772 standard go up to 80 amps. Tesla has used this standard since the very first Roadster, with only a minor physical adaptor (no electronics) required for public non-Tesla AC charge stations.
I don't quite blame Tesla for forging ahead when everybody else was/is dragging their feet.
- - - Updated - - -
There's absolutely no reason CHAdeMO could not be used for both AC and DC, as Tesla does already. A simple communication signaling DC / AC power, and the onboard relays would click to the onboard charger(s) for AC and directly to the battery for DC.
Those 200 amp pins and wires in CHAdeMO (and CCS) have no idea if they providing AC or DC, nor do they care.
I can't argue with the "huge plug" part, and the 200 amp limit is grossly short of Tesla. Tesla made the best decision by not hobbling their car to fit other lessor standards, particularly considering that those other standards were not widely deployed (or even fully designed).�
Aug 9, 2015
stopcrazypp I guess they can still use the same physical connector for AC and then re-purpose some of the pins for the communication. The CHAdeMO protocol itself does not support AC, while CCS does. The first half of the Tesla protocol actually starts off the same as CCS, it's just Tesla switches to CAN for digital communication instead of GreenPHY PLC.�
Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 How about starting a new thread to discuss charging standards and then asking the mods to move these posts there? They really have nothing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread.
Thanks.�
Aug 9, 2015
Oba My recommendation for a CHAdeMO adaptor at the charge stations would be:
1) It surely does not matter if the site is "free" or not. That seems to be an odd requirement from folks driving $100,000 cars, given that all but the most brutally thrifty would gladly pay a reasonable fee for a much needed charge at a convenient location. Given this requirement, you would eliminate perhaps 80-90% of all existing CHAdeMO stations.
2) Any method you devise to maintain control is likely to ultimately fail for somebody intent on getting a free $450 device. Sadly, that's life. Therefore, I recommend a credit card charge for the full amount of the unit ($500) to be held until the unit is returned. This gives the driver the opportunity to return it for a partial refund ($10 per day?), or keep it.
3) This could be done with a lockbox that only opens with a credit card sale (would require point of sale equipement, with a monthly fee). Counting on behind-the-counter and only during business hours is a failure from the start. The guy who shows up really needing it is also the guy who wasn't prepared to begin with.�
Aug 9, 2015
Andyw2100 Based on your suggestions, I don't think you really understood my idea. I'm not proposing having CHAdeMO adapters randomly placed at charging stations. I'm suggesting a program that mimics the Destination Charging program already in place. That program offers free HPWCs, but the recipients have to offer free charging. That's why one of the requirements was that the CHAdeMO chargers offer free charging.
As for your proposal to run someone's credit card for $500, no business that is doing Tesla owners a favor by managing the lending out of the CHAdeMO adapter and offering free charging is going to want to deal with the hassles and fees of credit card charges and subsequent credits. Even authorizations only would be too much to ask.
And thanks for the vote of confidence with the "failure from the start" comment with respect to only working during business hours. Right now, there is no CHAdeMO adapter at the places that might get one through what I'm suggesting. So the guy who shows up without an adapter isn't charging there anyway. I did suggest that Tesla would have to be very clear with respect to when the adapter would be available and when it would not be.�
Aug 9, 2015
Oba Indeed, I did not get that you wanted TESLA to give away free CHAdeMO adapters. I don't see that happening, as I predict these things would be on eBay by the first weekend. Who is responsible for something not bolted down?
The program would end as soon as the first one is stolen, and nobody takes responsibility to replace it.
I wasn't suggesting any business / host provide this service, for the very reasons you cite. It would be a lock box, that is only opened with a credit card authorization. 24/7 access.
I'm not a fan of piecemeal solutions that only work when all the stars align properly. People don't drive cars on a "business hours only" schedule. I also don't consider charge stations that are only open during certain hours to be viable solutions. I doubt seriously I would include these types of situations in my planning... too many chances for something to fall through the cracks.
I'm planning a trip from SoCal to the east coast, and while Superchargers can be used most of the way, there are excursions that might want me to charge elsewhere. I have no idea when I might actually be at any singular location, therefore time constraint locations wouldn't make the cut for consideration.
Of course, I wouldn't start the trip without a CHAdeMO adaptor, in addition to every other possible way to access electrical power for my car from public locations.
So, I guess that I'm not the guy to take advise from for this project! Good luck.�
Aug 10, 2015
jerry33 When Tesla developed their connection there was no common standard that would carry the required current. They were, perhaps, supposed to wait for years until the standards committee finalized a standard? If they did that, there would likely be no Tesla. This isn't a question of refusing or being stubborn, it's a question of being there first when no standards were available.�
Aug 10, 2015
FlasherZ Tesla has said a number of times that the issue was the rather horrible J1772 physical connector. The connector is perfectly round and is horribly keyed, so the person plugging the car in must ensure that the connector is perfectly aligned. I've seen a lot of the outer rings snapped off of many of the J1772 chargers I've visited because of the stress placed on the cable when it's torqued as it's inserted or pulled from the vehicle (someone places the bottom edge on the connector, then turns until the key almost lines up). Tesla's connector is extremely elegant - and even my 6 year old can plug it in without problems - the shape and rounded edges of the charge port make it easy for anyone to plug it in without requiring them to line it up perfectly.
Now, on-topic - there's an Eaton CHAdeMO in Normal, IL, in the same parking garage as the Supercharger:
If the adapter were lighter, then it could be secured to the charging cable somehow... Perhaps a retractable safety cable holding it to the unit, although it would create a second line to trip over... note that this station isn't manned (although inside there is an information both, they're just not experts on all the chargers - L2, L3, SC - in the building... they just know how to validate parking)�
Aug 10, 2015
Andyw2100 If you "did not get" that this thread was about Tesla giving away free CHAdeMO adapters it's pretty clear you haven't taken the time to read much of this thread, apparently including the thread title, or even the first sentence in my opening post:
That being the case, I don't see much point in continuing the discussion.
�
Aug 10, 2015
FlasherZ I think it's a great idea and would be right in line with their destination charging program. As noted by others, though there are two major hurdles to overcome: first, will owners shy away from the level 3 chargers because of their cost (there are few free ones out there); second, the bigger challenge, is how you handle the availability of a $450 piece of equipment that has to be stationed on the car end.
Unlike destination charging, where you're stopping for the day and the hotels have valets or people who can watch over the lot, many level 3 chargers are intended to be self-sufficient and unmanned. So the problem then changes to security - how do you secure the cable?
I don't have good answers for this, although perhaps some experimentation is in order. I'm willing to bet that if you connected a CHAdeMO operator with Tesla, you could get them to consider an adapter at a reduced price (or free), and then you'd be able to experiment with making it work.
(What would be even better is a charging station chassis mounted adapter with a longer Tesla type 2 cable... you'd have a second cable at the charging station and would just plug the CHAdeMO head into the station-mounted socket. That way you wouldn't have to figure out how to place the device close to the car while securing it.)�
Aug 10, 2015
TexasEV I know you're a big CHAdeMO fan, but I'm glad Tesla designed and used a better charging port and plug rather than being limited by an older and clunkier system. Let the rest of them catch up to Tesla-- or adopt the Tesla connector.�
Aug 10, 2015
Andyw2100 Thanks!
When I said I didn't see much point in continuing the discussion (the part of my post you quoted in yours) I was referring to the discussion with the poster who was having a completely different discussion, because he or she apparently hadn't read either the thread title or the first sentence in the opening post. I most definitely am interested in continuing the discussion the thread is actually about.
Thanks for the support, and your much-valued thoughts on the subject!�
Aug 10, 2015
Rocky_H I haven�t seen this corrected yet. The destination charging program does not require that they offer free charging. Most of them are hotels, and they usually require you to spend the night, or eat at their restaurant, or they charge a fee for a non-customer to use.�
Aug 10, 2015
dsm363 Stubbornly? The U.S. DC combo standard was just approved 2 years ago I believe. That would have meant delaying Model S launch until late 2013-2014. CHAdeMO is a horrible design and I'm glad no one else is adopting it.
Tesla came up with the best solution. I don't see that as a problem. So you have to use an adapter now and then. Not a big deal to me at least.�
Aug 10, 2015
smilepak In California, how many places are offering free DC charging that could use the CHAdeMO? I think only 2 or 3 that I know of.�
Aug 10, 2015
Dwdnjck The only advantage of chademo ofer HPWC is that other ev' s could use them. Why would Tesla want to enable competitor's destination charging?�
Aug 10, 2015
GlmnAlyAirCar CHAdeMO is way faster, that's one advantage. It's useful as a long-distance charger, as opposed to HPWC which is really only a destination charger. They would not be enabling a competitor's charging. On the contrary, they would be taking advantage of an existing charging infrastructure.
I've stopped at several Nissan dealership on recent road trips where there are supercharger gaps. Charging wasn't quite as fast as supercharger but still fast enough. 110+ miles per hour. These dealership always treat me great, which is a bit odd because I am driving a competitor's car.�
Aug 10, 2015
Lanny 
There is a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter available at the MOM's Organic Market in Frederick, Maryland. I have used it once. They ask to hold your driver's license until you return it. The CHAdeMO is free to use. The founder of this small and growing chain of stores located in the Mid-Atlantic is an enthusiastic supporter of EVs and drives a Model S. EV charging stations are provided at most of their stores. I believe the store paid for the adapter themselves.
Details: Tesla CHAdeMO Adapter at MOM�s in Frederick (PlugInSites)
Lanny�
Aug 10, 2015
SW2Fiddler I wasn't thinking about California when considering donating CHAdeMO Adapters to stations in areas under-served by Tesla Superchargers... Be kind of like distributing MREs on a Cruise Ship, was my thought. I could be wrong! Usually am, at least twice a day!
�
Aug 10, 2015
Oba Yes, of course, as I stated... I'm not the guy to give you advise on how to make another company give away expensive products with little control or oversight of said product.
Having said that, private businesses that want to offer the CHAdeMO adaptor seems like a great idea. If it turns up missing, the business will be responsible for the time and money to chase down the culprit, or write off the adaptor and possibly buy another.
Or private individuals, groups or not affiliated companies may also want to donate.
Tesla won't be funding the losses.�
Aug 10, 2015
Andyw2100 You're correct, of course.
My comparison was an incorrect over-simplification. The general concept is correct, in that Tesla isn't supplying free HPWCs to companies so they can then charge people directly to charge at the HPWC. So to keep the comparison parallel, I was suggesting that Tesla only supply the adapters for free to businesses offering free CHAdeMO charging, and not to those charging a fee for the right to charge.
Thanks for the correction.�
Aug 10, 2015
Sosius That's awesome!�
Aug 10, 2015
TexasEV I disagree that CHAdeMO is useful as a long-distance charger. It's not fast enough except for the EV enthusiast who will tolerate it. I'll use it when there is a gap in a supercharger route (I-10 from Texas to Florida in a 60 until Slidell supercharger gets built, for example) but I'm not going to like it. Charging an hour to drive 2 hours or even less is not sustainable. They're fine for quick charging short range EVs in the city, but to try to turn them into a long-distance charging solution would be a mistake. Tesla is much better served by a combination of superchargers and destination HPWCs. CHAdeMO is too slow for travel and usually overkill for destination charging. It doesn't serve either role well.�
Aug 10, 2015
FlasherZ I would tend to agree with you on the spirit of your message, although I wouldn't declare it to be completely unfit as a long-distance charger. Rather, I'd say it's "more useful" as a long-distance charger than a 20 kW HPWC.
I find that a 44 kW station works for long-distance travel if you're stopping at meal time, where you know you'll spend an hour or more in the restaurant (especially with my 4 boys). I agree that if every station were limited to 44-50 kW it would be untenable, but it's possible to leverage them in certain situations.�
Aug 10, 2015
Andyw2100 Great points.
And let's remember too that my suggestion that started this thread would not be to redirect resources from any other program. It would simply be Tesla throwing a few dollars in the direction of CHAdeMO chargers that already exist, to make it more likely that Tesla owners who have no reason to own their own CHAdeMO adapters would be able to use them.�
Aug 11, 2015
GlmnAlyAirCar My point is that a CHAdeMO can fill in the gap between superchargers much better than destination chargers can. I needed an extra 50 miles or so to comfortably make the trip between Plymouth, NC and Salisbury, MD. A quick stop in Norfolk at a CHAdeMO did the trick. And, yes, I can't wait for the Norfolk/Virginia Beach SC to come on line.�
Aug 11, 2015
deonb Wouldn't say it's not useful. There have been quite a few cases I've been in where the Superchargers are too fast, where I would have preferred being able to stop for longer and have a real lunch.
But because the Superchargers are so fast you can't actually sit down for 90 minutes in good conscious and leave your car plugged in. So we generally opt for faster establishments, which gets old. The Supercharger speed is actually in that very inconvenient gap - too slow to not do anything with your time, but too fast to do anything useful.
If all Superchargers had a Chademo next to them, I'd probably purposefully use the Chademo around 25% of the time.
Note that this can also be solved with those shared 4-port chargers that Elon promised back in 2013. Whatever happened to those? Would be nice if each Supercharger also had one set of 4-port charger ports with a sign "Ok to stop for up to 2 hours".�
Aug 11, 2015
wycolo > If all Superchargers had a Chademo next to them, I'd probably purposefully use the Chademo around 25% of the time. [deonb]
Yes, a SuperCharger to backup every Chademo station. :biggrin:
--�
Aug 11, 2015
TexasEV Superchargers are too fast. I never thought I'd hear that complaint!�
Aug 11, 2015
deonb Well, more accurately the complaint is that you're expected to move away from the Supercharger spot as soon as its done charging.
This makes it closer to a pump-gas-and-leave experience than a parking experience. But it is uncommon to park anywhere for 25 to 35 minutes - just watch your behavior in other places. Lunch is more, coffee is less.
The only thing that squarely fall in that range is fast food, but like I said - that gets old. Actually, having a beer is also in that range, but very few of the Superchargers are next to bars - I only know about Mt. Shasta.�
Aug 11, 2015
TexasEV Maybe it's different in your part of the country. I'm happy to just see another Tesla when I'm supercharging and have never seen more than half the spaces occupied. I don't think there would be a problem leaving it there for an hour while you eat unless the site is busy such as on a weekend, and then you could just peek at it after 30 or 40 min to make sure no one is waiting.�
Aug 12, 2015
wws This is a really good idea. I wonder if Tesla has approached the various CHAdeMO charger manufacturers to include this with their product offerings? The marginal cost would be small - just the guts of the existing adapter plus a relatively cheap cable. I'd bet it would cost less than the marginal cost of adding CCS.�
Aug 12, 2015
Oba Well, we're getting way off base from the original message of Tesla providing free CHAdeMO adaptors, however, there are a few tiny problems with this concept:
1) You can't just take a UL or otherwise listed / approved product like a DC charger and just willy nilly add components. Whatever was added would have to be resubmitted to UL, and that means for every model of charger where this concept would be applied. Who would pay for this (it could easily be tens of thousands of dollars per charger)?
2) With two cables hanging off the charger, there would need to be a set of relays between the cables to disable DC power to the other cable, and a logic circuit to ensure there's no "welded" relay. In other words, it's not just slapping on a cable.
3) The existing 80 amp cable from the HPWC could likely be used, with a corresponding limitation to the Tesla CHAdeMO adaptor. That would make a 80a * 300v = 24kW up to about 80a * 380v = 30.4kW before the amps start tapering down.
4) Ideally, the cable would be optimized for the 125 amps of CHAdeMO, but that doesn't physically exist with a Tesla plug on it. The Supercharger cable capable of 370 amps is gross overkill.
Great idea, I think, overall.�
Aug 13, 2015
Shaggy Town North Nissan off 183 in Austin was nice to offer theirs...�
Aug 13, 2015
wws Of course this would need to be done. But many have already have done it with dual standard CHAdeMO/CCS chargers.
Again, many have already done this for the dual standard chargers. In Europe, apparently there are already 3-way chargers (high power AC, CCS, and CHAdeMO.)
Better to use something that would support the max rate of the charger. If it only supports 30kw, so be it. But if it supports 50kw, or better yet, 100kw, an appropriate sized cable would be needed. Interestingly, the connector at the end of the new liquid cooled supercharger cable is the same as that used for the HPWC. (Per one of the design engineers who was on hand at the MV supercharger after the Tesla shareholders meeting.)
Easy problem to solve.
�
Aug 13, 2015
Oba Nobody has put an additional cable on an existing charger. They offer tested / approved chargers with multiple cables.
Big difference.
If the Superchargers were NOT free to use, there likely would already be such a charger. Quite obviously, there is virtually zero financial incentive to do this.
Back to reality, with either donated or Tesla supplied adaptors.�
Aug 14, 2015
FlasherZ I'm going even simpler than that. Mount the adapter so that when you want the Tesla cord, you plug the charger's CHAdeMO head into the adapter, already mounted on the charger. That "relay" is a human one.�
Aug 14, 2015
Oba OK, so now you need 20 feet of 125 amp cable and two splices.�
Aug 14, 2015
wws Ah - I was thinking about manufacturers that might consider offering a Tesla cable as an option for a _new_ charger. Different situation.�
Aug 14, 2015
SW2Fiddler Hey y'all, Good News! I have my first referred Order logged ("credit pending") meaning the Rouses Market "Destination CHAdeMO" open-source Tesla Adapter is one step closer to being a reality.
I'll update here as things proceed. My plan is to drive there in person and present it to Jeremy. Charge Pearlie May, Post it on PlugShare. Then meet up with NOLA_Mike for beignets!
LOL I can't believe I just now had to add "beignets" to the SpellChecker dictionary. Whose computer IS this anyway?
Rick (aka "rick3466")�
Aug 14, 2015
TexasEV Do you know if it's working? The most recent Plugshare entry says "Couldn't get broken handle to lock."�
Aug 14, 2015
SW2Fiddler No, that's news to me.
edit: of course a broken handle is at worst a temporary issue; wouldn't change plans re: thread topic�
Aug 14, 2015
Oba I still think that there is nearly ZERO incentive for a network provider who might buy and install the charger... it's still a bit difficult to compete with "free forever". Certainly, there are isolated situations where it might make sense, provided Tesla never plops in a Supercharger nearby.
The other somewhat significant thing for a charger manufacturer is that there are no available specs from Tesla. I can't imagine a western world established manufacturer who would risk producing Tesla equipment without Tesla data. Maybe somebody from China would, however.
I'm sure that there are folks thinking that this would be something that Tesla would support, but I see no tendency for Tesla to loosen their grip on overall control of their charging infrastructure. I was driving today with a low battery, when it popped up on the screen that I was "out of range of all known chargers", but yet I was within range of perhaps a dozen charge locations... they just weren't Tesla supplied ones.
I honestly don't see Tesla participating, and I don't see network providers / charger manufacturers becoming interested.�
Aug 15, 2015
SW2Fiddler I agree with that! Looking at it from the perspective of a network supplying a free-for-use charger - why expend resources on an adapter or adaptation that allows more juice used at their expense?
May be some reason to set up an adapter at a pay-for-use charger. Assuming more use = more profit.
OTOH, I agree with ChargePoint's Pat Romano who says that free charging as a loss-leader will be the dominant model.
Q:"Would a Tesla adapter/port enhance a location's demographics vis-a-vis the clientele thus attracted?"
A:"Does Elon Musk walk on airplane wings?"�
Aug 15, 2015
TexasEV Agree, i just thought you might know. We plan to charge there in two weeks on a trip to Destin (I have an adapter).�
Aug 15, 2015
SW2Fiddler Good luck either way. I messaged Jay who reported the breakage August 2nd (seems legit) - I've no idea if a few weeks is a normal repair turnaround.�
Aug 19, 2015
SW2Fiddler Can't copy/paste from PlugShare messages. To summarize:
It is the handle's lever (that is squeezed to lock the connector) that is the issue.
Jay says he tried (in the rain) June 9th and couldn't get it to lock, then two days later got it to work for another driver whom he was helping. It took much force to do it that day. August 2nd it did not work for a relative with Jay's car and adapter.
Again, good luck. Don't give up easily.
Rick�
Sep 9, 2015
Troy Andy's idea (in the opening message) is very good. An interesting development on this issue is Bjorn's initiative. He recently bought 15 Chademo adapters and he wants to donate them so others can use them.
Unfortunately instead giving them to restaurants or other businesses near Chademo chargers Bjorn is planning to send them to volunteer Model S owners who will keep the adapters in their trunk. Then when somebody needs these adapters, they will call the holder; confirm availability of the adapter and the holder; arrange a meeting; bring deposit equivalent to the full price of the adapter; exchange cash and the adapter; use the adapter for the trip; after the trip call the holder again; arrange a meeting; return the adapter and get the deposit back.
I have been unable to convince Bjorn that is a bad idea. I like Andy's version where the adapter would be donated to a nearby business like a restaurant. Then the restaurant will let their customers use the adapter while they dine. This is similar to Tesla's destination charging program. The map below shows all Chademo chargers in Norway. There are about 120 of them. With somebody like Bjorn leading a campaign like this it should be possible to collect enough donations from the referral credits to cover all Chademo chargers. I will ask Bjorn to comment in this topic.
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Sep 9, 2015
Bjorn No, I didn't say either A or B. I said both (if you watched my video carefully). Solution A is to let Model S owners hold them. Solution B is to let nearby gas station/ restaurant/hotel hold them.
Pros solution A (owners lend out):
- Users can use CHAdeMO regardless of opening hours or if that station has a nearby adapter or not
- Less time spent on borrowing/paying deposit/returning, more time on actual charging
- Fellow Model S owners are more likely to help lend out adapters. I already have a handful of people contacting me from all over Europe wanting to help.
- More flexible coverage and is suitable if the need for CHAdeMO is low
Cons solution A (owners lend out):
- Some people don't know the map/site where the lenders are listed whereas if the nearby hotel had it, there would be a sign telling there's an adapter for lend
Pros solution B (business lend out):
- No need to book adapter in advance.
- No need to know about community based map
- Guaranteed to get an adapter at that specific location
Cons solution B (business lend out):
- The business might be closed. Or the business might close during charging. That could lead in restrictions in the use.
- More adapters are needed to cover up most popular places.
- The adapters are stuck there and might not be in use if it's on a less popular spot.
As you see, both solutions have their pros and cons. That's why I will try both and see how it goes. Based on the experiences, I'll adapt the plan to make it the best for the users.�
Sep 9, 2015
Troy Bjorn,
From this topic I hope you realize how great Andy's idea is. The photo below is from message #37.
A few hours ago on Reddit you said 90% of adapters will go to other Model S owners who will then lend to others if contacted. I hope you don't do that. If you have now changed your mind and will try 50/50 between option A and B, that's an improvement but I still wish you would give up on that idea and start a campaign asking your viewers for donations. Then collect the adapters from Tesla store on their behalf and deliver them to restaurants all over the country and make a series of videos out of this. People would really support this campaign. Many people have now store credits thanks to the referral program. Now is the right time to start this campaign ask for donations. There are only 120 Chademo chargers in Norway. You said you might buy 15 more. So you will have 27. That's already 22% of the entire country. In a few months you would reach 100%.
I believe option A [sending the adapters to Model S owners volunteering to lend them out] is a complete waste of time and money. The chargers would get hardly any use at all except the holders. Most people won't know about it. You said the holders will be listen on some website? This is not a great solution. What website are we talking about? Most people wouldn't know about that. Even if they knew, how are you supposed to know about availability? Do you call each number one by one to see of the holder is in town and the adapter is available? If somebody has borrowed the item for 1 week and doesn't return for 4 weeks, how is that going to work? There are so many problems with this idea.
�
Sep 9, 2015
Oba I would certainly suggest for a relatively small place like Norway, that the CHAdeMO adaptor be locked at the stations, with the goal to have all stations with an adaptor.
For the adaptors that will be damaged or stolen over time, hopefully enough donations continue to allow them to be replenished.
The lock box, instead of an individual owner's locked boot or frunk, is the most likely location to keep them for high utilization. This will facilitate more impromptu usage.
The "roving" Tesla stewards would be the contact point identified on the lock box, and could release the box with a phone call and a credit card. The steward would only have to meet the traveling Tesla driver when it was time to return the unit (to receive credit).
The lock box can have a simple combination lock, that is resettable to new codes by the steward (much like a hotel safe). This also keeps the adaptor out of the weather.�
Sep 10, 2015
Bjorn The adapter has a firmware. This firmware must be updated at the service center from time to time. I assume updates could be:
- Better stability by improving hand shake
- Throttle the power so certain charging stations don't overheat
- Increase power after seeing that certain charging stations can handle higher load over time
- Bug fixes
If the business holds on to it, the adapter will most likely never be updated. Whereas a Model S owner will easily be able to update it. The 90/10 split was just an estimation. We don't know yet which one will work best. Maybe it will be 50/50 if the response from the business are good.
However, I want to involve 24/7 business only. From my own experience, people need charging at any time of the day/night. Having to plan or rush to get to a charger before the business closes is a serious disadvantage. Being able to refuel at any time is as important as being able to charge at any time.
I will write a policy for lenders and borrowers. The borrower should estimate how long the adapter is needed. If there is a change in plans, let the lender know. There could also be a 1 week free loan and then some fee for every day over.
There are problems and disadvantages with all solutions, including the restaurant solution. Solution A (Model S owner lend) was supported by many Norwegians who will go on a Europe road trip. We can't cover up all of Europe with adapters. And we don't know which one will be in use. Some Norwegians go to Spain. Some go to Croatia. And some go to Italy. Same goes for foreigners coming to Norway. Some go to North Cape. Some go to the western parts. This solution suits for those "holiday drivers".
But I agree that popular charging stations should have a dedicated adapter available. It just needs to be worked out. So far I have one feedback from Fortum (Fortum Markets - En av Nordens største strømleverandører
). They have provided one adapter at a charging station in Nes (�dal). I suggested doing the same in Oslo near E6/Furuset where there's a McDonald's. His response was that the restaurant will have to prioritize their food customer.
So the best solution for the charging customer would be to have the adapter locked to the charging station.
Pros:
- Fast and easy to use
- No need to deposit anything
- Available 24/7
Cons:
- Susceptible to vandalism, weather and schmutz
- Firmware won't be updated
- Could get stolen
I wonder if it's possible for Tesla to see who's using a specific adapter. Each adapter have its own serial number. So if I would report an adapter as stolen, they could possibly find out that the adapter is being used by which car. Even if they can do this, there's not much the customer can do due to privacy. It's highly unlikely they will give any information for such a small crime. It has to be serious crime before they can hand out information. And even so, it must be directly to the police and not the owner.�
Sep 10, 2015
Andyw2100 I think what Bjorn is doing is fantastic!
I think he definitely has the right idea that there are pros and cons to both models.
The model I suggested was just something that I thought Tesla could do. Bjorn, unlike Tesla, has the ability to involve other owners, so he has more flexibility to come up with a system that can take the best of both worlds, so to speak.
Bjorn--one suggestion I'd make would be to somehow let those people borrowing from the owners know that there is a fund that they can donate to that will be used solely for your project. Funds donated might be used to purchase more adapters, to purchase cabling systems or lock boxes for adapters, etc., etc. You could have a webpage or something that shows the status of the fund at all times, so people would see their donation made, if they wanted to track it, as well as the current balance in the fund, and what the fund was used for, once money starts going out. (Donations could be made anonymously, of course, but people would still be able to identify their own donation by date and amount.)
I make this suggestion because I think what you are doing is really helping the Tesla owners in your part of the world, and I expect some of them would be willing to give a little back, to help you help even more of them.
Good luck with the project!�
Sep 10, 2015
Troy I recommend collecting usage stats during the trial. My guess is the adapter will be used much more if it is near a charger. Also it might be a good idea to arrange the specific website where this is going to be advertised before the adapters are sent out. This would clarify how this is going to work.
If the idea is to lend adapters for 1-3 weeks to people who go on a Europe tour, it could be a good idea to use businesses that have a natural flow of Model S owners instead individuals. The locker idea is also a good suggestion. If holders are individuals, you would need advertising to make people aware this exists. However if this is a business selling Tesla accessories, chargers, solar or other things to Model S owners, they would have a natural flow of Model S customers. Individuals might be busy, in another city or on holiday. With businesses, this is not an issue. Another advantage with businesses is, you can send them many adapters especially if they are in a big city. This wouldn't make sense with individuals because when the holder is away all adapters would be unavailable.
I'm happy that Bjorn has reconsidered and thinking of doing a 50/50% split instead 90/10%. It would be great if this turned into a larger campaign. That's why I invited Bjorn to this topic.�
Sep 10, 2015
Andyw2100 Edit: This entire post was in response to the post above, which originally was a fairly harsh criticism of some aspects of what Bjorn is doing. To his credit, Troy agreed with some of the points I made, edited his post, and wrote me privately to ask me to edit mine, which I am doing. (I'm leaving a bit of Troy's quote, just to indicate that I had originally quoted it.)
I am leaving parts of my post as they were because some parts of it are just generally applicable, and editing too much of it would leave things making no sense at all.
Thanks for the change of heart, Troy!
As much as I appreciate your support for my idea (which was an idea for Tesla--an individual could implement something similar in a different way since they'd have more flexibility, as Bjorn is doing), I think you're being somewhat overly critical of what Bjorn is trying to do. (Edit--Not any longer.)
Please keep in mind that he doesn't have to do anything, and is doing this for the good of the Norwegian Tesla owners. (Edit--A couple of sentences deleted as they applied only to things Troy has now deleted.) He's just trying some things, to see what will work. Please give him the credit he deserves for being a smart guy and being able to figure out what's working, what isn't, and then make the appropriate changes to improve the program over time.
But in my opinion, if we, as a group, are overly critical of someone trying to do something this good, people will just stop doing things like this. I mean, who wants to be faced with that kind of criticism when they've just spent a bunch of their own money, and are also going to be spending a bunch of time on something. The expression, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" seems apropos here.�
Sep 10, 2015
Rocky_H I think that statement is illogical.
Hmm, it seems most of you are siding with the �adapters at businesses� perspective. I fall solidly on the other side and think that �adapters with Tesla cars� is the much more sensible option. I haven�t seen this factor listed in the pro and con lists, and it seems like the single most important factor of all. When someone takes a trip, they will be going to various places, cities, etc. Some of those places may have adapters, and some may not, so the Tesla driver would only be able to use the CHAdeMO stations that have adapters, and for the ones that don�t�too bad, you�re out of luck. It makes the most sense that the person on the trip needs to have the adapter WITH THEM in the car so that wherever they go, they can use it at every CHAdeMO station. Think about it. It�s a one-way condition. A CHAdeMO station works with other cars, so the adapter would just be there not getting used when other types of cars are using it, and there is no Tesla there. It�s only needed when a Tesla is present, so shouldn�t the adapter be with the Tesla car?�
Sep 10, 2015
SW2Fiddler One thing we can all agree on, is: this is truly a unique point in EV history.
I feel that in the near future, businesses will be putting lots of brainpower to work (their own brainpower, and expensive marketing consultants' brainpower, for larger businesses) to figure out how they can attract "Tesla drivers" to their establishment. Right now, we do not yet have the visibility that will eventually come to our "demographic" (not that we're easily labeled).
Even the concept of "Free Wi-Fi as an inducement to bring in business" hasn't caught on 100%, but we see a lot more of it than two or three years ago.
I donated an adapter (from my first referral) to a very suitable location; they fit the profile of "Free" and "Public" and "In a gap Between two Superchargers" and very importantly, "Willing to host an adapter" - so that choice was very easy (the sole drawback is they are not open 24/7 - more like 18/7). Comes time to choose a second host location, and it is not nearly as easy. Looking at a public (about to open) CHAdeMO in Virginia, and a station in a gap north of MPLS Minnesota, and there hasn't been responsive input from TMC locals when I have popped into their local discussions and asked.
For now, 10% at fixed locations might actually be about right, as the right combination of attributes is turning out to be unexpectedly rare. It's harder than I imagined, to give these away!
To Bj�rn and my fellow trailblazers in this exciting crowdsourced-charging-access concept, be assured that most folks are seeing your efforts and applauding strongly. Even the critics do mean well, I am sure of that, and are trying to help fine-tune the situation to everyone's benefit.
Again, very interesting times, y'all. Enjoy them!
Rick�
Sep 10, 2015
Oba I believe this assumption is incorrect. It is the vehicle that updates the firmware on the adaptor, therefore, with every use is an opportunity to update the firmware. The only way it wouldn't be updated is if the adaptor is riding around in the boot/frunk of somebody's car, and not being used.
Exactly. The entire issue is moot with a lock box at the charger. It will be available 24/7.
For somebody going on a long journey (perhaps out of Norway), it makes sense to have the driver physically have the adaptor in the car. But, I would recommend a common distribution point for those services, since these will likely have some advanced notice. Just ship it to the person, or to a common pick up location (FedEx, for instance, can hold the package at their office, and they are usually open late or 24/7). Using the model of individual drivers who would hand these out is just fraught with issues.
So, there are indeed two models:
1) Every CHAdeMO in Norway with a lockbox / or viable nearby 24/7 receptionist who can hold the adaptor
2) CHAdeMO adaptor for journeys / holiday / vacations, where the adaptor would be mailed and carried with the driver for days / weeks at a time (I would charge some rent for this)
- - - Updated - - -
Not a very nice way to approach this... if you feel that the adaptor is so important to carry in your car, then by all means, please do! For local impromptu use, the adaptor at the station makes the most sense. For journeys, renting or buying the adaptor for the trip makes the most sense.�
Sep 10, 2015
jerry33 I'd suggest that adaptors at businesses will often be not working, missing (not necessarily stolen, but the staff may not know where they are or not have the keys), advertised but not actually there. I wouldn't count on them for a trip. Having the adaptor with the car makes more sense.�
Sep 10, 2015
Troy What if the adapters were donated to a charity and the charity would make a small profit renting them? Ideally this charity should have an online store where they can accept payments and ship the item.
Borrowing adapters for long trips is not a bad idea in itself but it is bad if the adapters are kept by individuals. People wouldn't know something like that exists. Even if they knew, they wouldn't know about availability. Somebody else might have borrowed it. You would have to call a bunch of random people one by one just to find out about availability. Then you have to arrange a meeting to collect the item and another meeting to return it. Most people doing long trips wouldn't bother. They would just buy an adapter.
Update:
There is this website providing Chademo adapter rentals. A charity version of this with much lower prices ($10 or �10 per week) would be a good idea to cover the long trip usage.
�
Sep 10, 2015
Max* Have you seen a Chademo adapter? Those things are very big and heavy. Shipping costs would kill it. Also, there was some site that tried to do this, but I'm not paying $150 to rent a Chademo when I could buy it for 3x as much.�
Sep 10, 2015
SW2Fiddler The reality: There's a gizmo at each Service Center to flash the adapter's firmware:
�
Sep 10, 2015
Troy Shipping costs can be calculated online if you know the dimensions and weight of the item. I would estimate the adapter is 2.5-3 kg and would cost around �15 to ship within a European country. Paying �25 online (including the �10/week fee) would be much easier than the other option where you have to contact a bunch of people, arrange a meeting at a time that suits both sides, spend lots of time driving there, bring �400 cash, repeat when returning.�
Sep 10, 2015
Max* I looked up shipping costs, and maybe it's not so bad. You can do it for about $15, each way, insured with USPS.�
Sep 10, 2015
SW2Fiddler Shipping "one or two States away" had a cost of roughly $20 at FedEx, and $16 at the Post Office. I didn't mind it these two times, but that gets old for a repeating charitable endeavour! (of course it'd be worth it for the person borrowing)�
Sep 10, 2015
Rocky_H I�m afraid I don�t understand the thought process here:
Leafs and other short range EVs have �local impromptu use�. We buy Teslas with long range so we don�t have to do that. Journeys is when it would primarily be needed, so that is when this renting/borrowing idea applies.�
Sep 10, 2015
Bjorn That's not what the Tesla service center told me. They said the adapter must be updated there. They could be wrong of course (like they have about other things before). Where did you get your information from?
Thank you for your support. I'm listenting to feedback and will adjust this lending program as it goes. Unfortunately not everyone is happy for it. This is a comment on the YouTube video:
Nils Veiv�g 1 day ago
This is the stupidest idea ever as long as the current charging network barely manage to serve the amount of cars there is today. It will never benefit Tesla occupying a Chademo charger for 2 hours.
Edit: He is a Leaf owner. Hmmmm... yeah.
No need to make it complicated. The topography of Norway is simple. Most people going to/from Norway must pass Oslo. If they take the ferry it could be Larvik (and then Oslo), Kristiansand, Stavanger or Bergen. As long as I have these cities covered, we're good. No need to ship stuff here and there. It will just cost more, take more time and have a risk of damaging the adapter.�
Sep 10, 2015
Oba Ok, my brain database has now been updated! Thanks!
- - - Updated - - -
It appears that I'm wrong. Sorry for the confusion.
- - - Updated - - -
i don't have any LEAFs, but I certainly have occasional impromptu needs. If you are so well planned and organized to not need that, good for you.
Perhaps an example? I only charge to about 70% on any normal day, and charge cables have quit or been forgotten. Therefore, it's quite possible to find an uncomfortable day of driving without a top off. Where I live, there are dozens of CHAdeMO chargers for every Supercharger (in Norway, too) and my time and convenience if far more valuable than only going to Superchargers to save a nickel.
If I were too cheap to buy the correct adaptor, I likely am not going to go through a bunch of hoops to acquire the CHAdeMO adaptor for an immediate (impromptu) need. That's why it needs to be at the charger.
As to the person commenting on Bjorn's video, it's not very likely that a Tesla will need to be there for two hours. The car likely needs enough energy to get home, the next stop, or to the next free Supercharger, which charges far, far faster than CHAdeMO will ever dream of.�
Sep 10, 2015
Bjorn No problemo
My point exactly. In the situations I needed the CHAdeMO, it was only for 15-30 minutes which is what other Leafs would need as well. And in the rare cases I mentioned in the video, we were on a location where the density of Leafs or similar were so low that we didn't meet any other EVs during the 4 hour charging.�
Sep 11, 2015
SW2Fiddler
And this week sees two reports of the charger being ICEd.
grrrrr!�
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