Jan 26, 2016
ElectricLove Hi guys/gals,
Wondering if anyone has a master schematic of wiring in the roadster, especially the 12V stuff... I've got a vehicle which I can put 12V on and get the headlights and flashers going but that's about it (no VDS, no trunk/door actuators, etc)... Anyone know where things are ultimately sourced for 12V power? I can't confirm the APS is in fact in-tact or blown, however on another vehicle I've tested this same process on, it had a dead HV battery and 12V on the vehicle (via accessory battery leads) resulted in live VDS/trunk/etc...
Any ideas?�
Jan 26, 2016
MLAUTO I always just connect 12v to the terminal block in front of the right rear wheel. The APS output is connected there. Behind the wheel well liner- its the little black box with the red wires. Has always worked for me with or without the 12v battery. The VDS takes about a minute or so to boot up.�
Jan 26, 2016
ElectricLove Yes, same here.
I've got a vehicle right now that is not doing anything though, VDS not booting up, neither is VMS, PEM, etc...
I'm thinking maybe the Switchpack has a problem, we are going to investigate that component next... But that is only me guessing as to where the 12V is coming from for the "drivetrain" components!�
Jan 26, 2016
MLAUTO What's the story behind the car? Brick, wreck, theft? I'd have to know that in order to begin to help.�
Jan 26, 2016
MLAUTO Check the inertia switch on the left side of the ESS if it was a wreck. Push down on the center of the top to reset.�
Jan 26, 2016
supersnoop 1.5 or 2.x? The 12v systems are completely different.�
Jan 26, 2016
TEG I thought ElectricLove had presented themselves as an expert in this area of working on Roadster power systems...
Weren't you asking for people to loan you their Roadsters to work on this pack upgrade project?
Third Party Roadster Pack? - Page 4
I am surprised to see you got into such big trouble so early in the project.
Sorry to hear that your car is not functioning at the moment.
- - - Updated - - -
If it is #114 as mentioned in EL's sig, then a 1.5...�
Jan 27, 2016
m0rph They are.
But I was surprised to see that the interior lights AND the 12V socket were working fine, with the 12V battery removed from my car (a 2.5)!�
Jan 27, 2016
Chickenlittle Yeah I thought so too. Weren't they fixing battery packs? Hope this occurred prior to "fix". Am wondering whether tesla will touch car that has extensive battery changes?�
Jan 27, 2016
MLAUTO
The APS supplies the power to those systems, so they are active anytime the car is awake. The only advantage that I have found to having the battery in the 2.0/2.5 is for the alarm system/keyless entry. It responds faster with the battery.�
Jan 27, 2016
dhrivnak Wow guys why the piling on? I seems to be an honest question on how some subsystems work. Knowledge we could all benefit from�
Jan 27, 2016
supersnoop I thought #114 was the one he re-imported for the UK in working condition. I'm assuming (hoping) this is a different, dead Roadster.
Have you read the history? I'm under the impression he charges people for his "expertise" and then comes and asks all of us how to deliver on his commitments. But maybe that's just my interpretation.�
Jan 27, 2016
ElectricLove It is a Sport, so 2.x
- - - Updated - - -
It is a different vehicle, not the 1.5; it is a 2.0Sport.
I didn't come on the forum clueless as to what is going on, we just got into this vehicle yesterday for a few hours, haven't really had the time to go through it due to a myriad of other issues it has going on, my question was relatively specific, however it's quite alright if the information isn't readily available, we will, no doubt, have this figured out by the end of the day today!
We are not working on a customer car, just to put your mind at ease on that! We are in R&D mode and learning more about more systems, we have extensively gone through the PEM and are fully prepared to take on PEM challenges, this is something new, just haven't seen it yet is all. The responses here (from some) are suggesting I should "wear a mask" and not be open in the slightest bit that I may not know 100% of everything there is to know (does anyone? I've found, Tesla themselves doesn't...), seems there are a few of us here ready to jump on these opportunities to down-play our efforts. This attitude doesn't bother me, personally, but it is less than helpful.
Thanks for all the responses though!
- - - Updated - - -
We did this as one of our first diagnostic steps, it didn't change anything, the vehicle was wrecked so it was "open" but we popped it back into the "close" position (double-checked with DMM).
I will add, we have found there is about a 60 seconds delay from applying 12V to the aux leads and getting headlight/hazards to actually turn on, which is odd...
My thoughts are now that there is a common ground that may be missing or a blown "master" fuse...
Thanks for the response!
- - - Updated - - -
Bricked battery for sure, wrecked vehicle.
We have a spare ESS (with working APS, etc) to swap into the vehicle for testing but this does take a good portion of the day on labor so would like to explore other (simpler) options first. It seems there is either a wiring issue or component failure and wiring issues without wiring schematics is like hunting for a needle in a haystack, we'll find it but just looking for assistance from anyone who may have seen this before, component failures we can deal with more easily!�
Jan 27, 2016
Chickenlittle My question was a honest one. Will tesla fix a car whose battery is messed with? That's not piling on. It's a question that anyone who utilizes their services needs to get an answer to ahead of time�
Jan 27, 2016
MLAUTO OK, now I know which one you are working on. The only main fuse is directly behind the fuse box on the right side under the dash-which is where that car has damage. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with a bricked battery, even if all the car electronics work, you won't be able to do anything without power from the ESS. The one bricked car I had even showed 35 miles range after I connected 12V, but the ESS was completely dead. There was no communication. The only thing I was able to do was enable the APS.
That 60 second delay is very strange, as I believe the rear power junction feeds directly to the front fuse panel (thru the main fuse). With the key on and 12V applied, almost all of the fuses should have power. I would start there.�
Jan 27, 2016
TEG May not be much help, but I heard story of a body shop that disassembled a Roadster a long time ago to make molds of all the panels for a body kit.
They managed to "power it down" when pulling everything apart, and came briefly on the forum asking for help in how to "reboot" the Roadster systems to get it going again.
The discussion went silent after a while but my sense was that they got told "you ruined the car, so it is junk now" and may not have ever gotten help putting it back together.
So, maybe a cautionary tale that Tesla may not be helpful once a Roadster has "gone catatonic" on someone.
Also, powering systems down by unplugging things may not be easily reversible without approval / help from Tesla themselves.
I know just a vague description of things... But my sense is that it isn't public knowledge how to get a Roadster going again once it has shut itself down like that.�
Jan 27, 2016
TEG I spoke to a friend who managed to repair a wrecked Sport and he had these questions / suggestions:
#1: Is the pack voltage discharged below 250V ? (If so, it will be completely shut down.)
#2: Did you open the service panel on the PEM and check the ESS voltage there?
#3: Did you check voltage at the service disconnect behind the rear wheel?
If you have another ESS, can you swap it into that car, to see if everything powers up with the good ESS?
If the ESS in the wreck is < 250V, there is some sort of "recovery mode" procedure, but apparently it is complicated.
It may be possible to mimic a good ESS with a power supply providing more than 250V.
But, I would assume you already know most / all of this sort of stuff from your past experience.
In summary, he said there really is no point trying to resurrect it if the pack voltage is less than 250V.
In that case, best to swap in a better pack, and troubleshoot from there.�
Jan 27, 2016
MLAUTO
That sounds like the one I bought-every single nut and bolt had been removed and replaced, electrical connectors and wiring damaged, it appeared the whole car had disassembled and then half-assed put back together. It only had 1500 miles and was a brick for well over two years before I bought it. I thought a school might have had it for training purposes, but some automotive company's name popped up during some previous history research.
Unlike most other new cars, most electrical components can be swapped without any reprogramming, so bringing one back from the dead is more a matter of repairing or replacing things.�
Jan 27, 2016
Mark77a ^This^�
Jan 27, 2016
ElectricLove Yes, you guys are right, the ESS is dead, it is <250VDC, will have to be recovered through the external jumping method (force contactor on and charge the cells under surveillance), what I'm trying to accomplish now is simply whether the other components are in working order and how many miles on the Odometer, I'd also like to pull log files (which we can access directly off the Samsung NAND-flash in the VMS if we need to but that's more complicated!).�
Jan 27, 2016
markwj From my understanding, this is available in the Tesla service portal, so long as you live in Massachusetts.
Welcome | Tesla Service
You can get 24 hours access for $100, or 1 hour for $30 if you're quick.�
Jan 27, 2016
TEG Apparently the DC/DC converter doesn't power on below 250v, which is a reason why a pack that low doesn't let the rest of the car start humming.
Also, apparently there are a limited number of custom ESS rejuvenation machines in existence, which may be why dead packs tended to get sent back to HQ instead of being fixed on site.�
Jan 27, 2016
ElectricLove Rejuvenation can happen without the "machine", takes some time but is doable�
Jan 27, 2016
wiztecy And dangerous. I know a person reviving an older Zero pack when it flamed up during the process. Luckily he was home, the dog alerted him and by the time he got down there the fire was intense. He was able to pull the pack out of the garage since it was on some sort of metal tray and got lucky. The intense fire was the pack going off and what did catch on fire in his garage, he was able to put out himself since he caught it in time.
This is something you don't want to do inside your garage and must be monitored carefully.
Besides, the battery will never charge, hold a charge nor perform even close to what it use to. Not worth it in my opinion.�
Jan 27, 2016
ElectricLove
None of this stuff should be done at home, it isn't "hobbyist" stuff, there is always risk whenever working with electricity and especially with batteries. A lot of Lithium cells are recoverable but a significant portion of them will not be. It's possible to identify and remove the "weakest" cells from the block of 6831 in the Roadster, and this should be done prior to re-installation.
Anyways, you are right it takes some time and a lot of care, but in the end it is doable...�
Jan 27, 2016
m0rph Indeed. He has been very clear in all his posts that he is doing research and not taking money for a job he can't handle. Yet every time he asks a question, some need to bash on him.
People who would consider using his service in the future, will be those that got a quote from Tesla for a new PEM or ESS, and not willing to pay that amount. I would take the plunge, it's a no brainer if the part is already declared dead by the SC. We should be proud that people come here to gather information that in the end leads to non-OEM repair options at a fraction of the price! Bottom line? Keep going, ElectricLove!�
Jan 28, 2016
dpeilow This.�
Jan 28, 2016
Chickenlittle My post quoted in the post about piling on. I asked will tesla service the car in future with the battery components altered. That is not piling on and people do need to look into this before going down that path�
Jan 28, 2016
wiztecy True about weeding out the bad/weak cells and recovering what's good. I'm sure Tesla does the same thing with their miracle machine. Yes, I know you have some more knowledge than the average person on the street about the batteries. Its always good to point out the dangers and cautionary tails for those who may not know that and start digging into things.
Like the guy who's trying to recover the Flooded Model-S which appears to have been dunked in salt water which has been discussed in the Model-S thread. He has no experience with any of that stuff and is digging into what could be a ticking time-bomb due to corrosion. Lets hope the battery pack is sealed well and no shorts occur. Its a total loss and only good for scrap and salvaged parts. Nice following the thread and seeing how things got toasted/corroded and such. But I'm sure Tesla is biting their nails hoping nothing bad happens with that car while being tinkered with.
Good luck on your project and thanks. Keep us posted on what you find and how things are going!�
Jan 28, 2016
ElectricLove I know what you mean! Thanks for the encouragement! And thank you for being safety conscious, it's definitely a good thing!�
Jan 28, 2016
markwj OK, this is probably off topic, and I have been very supportive of ElectricLove up until now. So, please tell me that ElectricLove is not Gruber Power Services.
If so, perhaps ElectricLove can explain why have I overnight received four separate copies of a spam eMail from Gruber Power Services?�
Jan 28, 2016
wiztecy That's interesting. I hate spam. Gruber does have a Tesla section so its looking as if you may be right:
Tesla Electric Vehicles (EV)�
Jan 28, 2016
bonnie I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that ElectricLove and Gruber Power are the same. Apologies if I'm wrong.
�
Jan 28, 2016
dpeilow If they are, so what?�
Jan 28, 2016
markwj My concern is where they got the eMail addresses from. Likely by scraping websites (teslamotorsclub.com included), or by purchasing the email list from another scraper.�
Jan 28, 2016
wiztecy The "what" I believe is that people like Mark and myself do not like to receive unwanted spam. I'm assuming things, but I'm sure Mark is like how the heck did they get my email.... What I think he's possibly thinking is from here or from OVMS, etc. Mark can add if he wants to clarify.
So if that's so, please do not add me as well as others to any mailing list unless I subscribe myself. I personally do not give my business or any of my hard earned money to establishments that use that tactic.
ElectricLove is very open for people who voice their concerns it appears from the past and responds to them rationally rather than emotionally it seems. So I'm sure he'll add his side or at minimum take peoples suggestions and pass them along to his boss.
I have not received any spam/emails from Gruber Power nor would I like any in the future. Mark's time is more valuable helping us free of charge (thank-you) with our OVMS technical issues rather than clicking and deleting unwanted spam as well as to possibly having to setup new email accounts if his older address was sold at wholesale prices.�
Jan 29, 2016
ElectricLove Unfortunately, you guys are correct, this is spam from us... It was put out against my judgement and I warned it wouldn't go over well, but it was out of my control... I am not the owner of this company, I am an employee, and the owner believes in this sort of "guerilla marketing", I do not!
I, personally, would like to formally apologize to anyone on this forum who got one of those emails and hope it doesn't paint a poor image of us and what we can do!
I also received the spam (but I was expecting it), it went straight to my spam folder though so the only reason I saw it was that I was looking for it.
- - - Updated - - -
In response to the "sold at wholesale prices"; I would like to tell you guys that your email addresses were NOT purchased and I will do everything and anything in my power to ensure they are never sold (I have this commitment firmed up from the owner of the company too), I suggest unsubscribing from the list by clicking the link on bottom of the email.�
Jan 29, 2016
hcsharp It's funny I've had direct email communication with 2 employees at Gruber (not spam) but haven't received any spam - I guess they didn't add my email to the marketing list. My experiences with this company have been positive.�
Jan 29, 2016
wiztecy That's good to hear. We need companies like this and people to take the challenge pursuing and testing EV technology as well as supporting it. Henry has amazingly contributed and done his part individually and I highly admire that. Thank you.
Again I see ElectricLove as a pure EV enthusiast like most of us here. He's had multiple Roadsters, a Volt, he has shown he's committed to EVs for sure. He's connected with a business who has accessibility to technology and infrastructure that we as individuals don't. Electriclove gave his honest feedback and we should respect that. I also don't think its wrong that he comes here for information as long as he contributes. We all need and depend on each other to support and appreciate our Roadsters as well as to keep them on the road as icons to the EV revolution. And if they're recovering salvaged ones as well as learning and offering services or parts that we all could use and like at hopefully affordable prices, I'm all in.
Note we are all under criticism when we post. Its not a bad thing. I make human errors and mistakes. My intention is to help others and offer the most accurate information I can supply. So we have a checks and balances system here, that's a good thing as long as you don't become emotional. With Henry having a positive experience, I which also have not had spam but don't want it, feel we have more of a benefit of supporting Electriclove.
So with that Electriclove can show his boss that people in the EV world are typically smarter than the rest, don't like spam, but if you do come out with something very intriguing and cost effective, you'll have people flock towards your business naturally and the advertising is word of mouth. That's the best positive advertising. Not spamming. How about Gruber become a sponsor on TMC as well as other EV boards? That's a great move for everyone and should be tax-deductable on you bosses end Electriclove. Can you float that one to your boss?�
Jan 29, 2016
MLAUTO I've had direct emails with ElectricLove and received nothing as well.�
Jan 29, 2016
ElectricLove I already floated this to him, he is the type to hold his purse strings tight, I've had a lot of luck getting him to spend but he was too keen on his spam campaign and wanted to see how it would pan out... I spoke with him about it today and got his commitment on never selling the list and let him know its probably doing more harm than good that we sent it out, etc... Anyways, I also spoke to him about the opportunity to legitimately advertise here on TMC, he said he had a note in with the guy who is in charge of that but hadn't heard back anything on how to move forward with it, I am pretty sure he is on-board with the idea at this point and I'm hopeful we move that direction!
By the way, EV enthusiast is an understatement for me, haha! I've been driving EV since before Tesla ever sold a Roadster, I've had, I think, about 10 of them so far, the roadster is currently part of our "fleet" which includes 4 EV! (Leaf, Volt, Roadster, DIY-Yaris-EV and 1 old VW Westfalia which needs to be rehomed!) I'm probably more like an EV obsessive than anything else! I'm very lucky to be in a position at my company where I get to work on the things I love and get paid!
We have done 1 PEM repair for a customer so far and it went really well! We currently have a customer Prius which we are building a new higher capacity Lithium HV battery for! And I have it in my mind that we will be building a booster pack for the Roadster soon! (one that installs in the boot, weighs about 90 lbs and provides an additional 50 miles of range; for an aging Roadster pack it may be a happy medium between buying a new pack and doing nothing! I also am convinced it will allow the Tesla pack to last longer by off-setting some of the stress/usage)
Anyways, very exciting stuff and I am optimistic about the future of the EV world and will continue to do everything I can to make it a reality for everyone!�
Jan 30, 2016
jeremyz That's interesting about a booster pack. I was thinking it might make sense to have a booster ultra-capacitor as a level 1 cache for the battery. Not for added range, but to prevent/reduce voltage sag during hard acceleration and to reduce the instantaneous peak power demands on the battery to prolong its life.�
Jan 30, 2016
Mark77a i agree
that would also be a significant innovation. @pv4ev has been doing some interesting research on this.�
Jan 31, 2016
markwj OK. I appreciate your position, but please tell your boss that from my point of view we've just blacklisted Gruber Power Services eMail across about 1.3million+ mailboxes my organisation manages.
Also, no more technical support or suggestions.
Sorry, but completely unacceptable (particularly given the eMail addresses I saw targeted).�
Jan 31, 2016
wiztecy 
�
Feb 1, 2016
Chickenlittle Yes a roadster with a trailer hitch towing a booster pack. This on a car with a 100 pound weight limit in the trunk. I wish this idea development the best�
Feb 1, 2016
jeremyz I don't think anybody mentioned anything about towing a trailer.
Speaking of trailers, I love this picture of JB Straubel towing a refrigerator with his Roadster.
�
Feb 1, 2016
Habious I think his point was, with a 100 lb. weight limit for the trunk, you're not putting a 400 lb "booster battery" back there....and you're obviously not gonna strap it to the roof. I think the only option would be to tow it behind you (unless someone can make a 15Kw battery pack that weighs less than 100 lbs).�
Feb 1, 2016
jeremyz There's a bunch of space under the trunk box; you could probably reinforce it. If you don't care about extra range (which I don't) and you want extra power to combat voltage sag, you could put in some nutty LiPo batteries (watch out for fire coming out of the trunk).
Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 65~130C Lipo Pack
Put in 11 of these packs and you could get a continuous output kick of 132kW or a peak output of 264kW. That would weigh about 35 pounds. The energy content of the booster pack would be insubstantial (2kWh), but the power output would be very substantial.�
Feb 1, 2016
slcasner Note that this is an Engineering Prototype car which had an opening behind the front tire into the space underneath the door. In the production bodywork that space was closed off, but even so we still have too much trouble with dirt under the doors.�
Feb 2, 2016
MLAUTO ???? The trunk box less than an inch above the cooling fans. I'm not sure where you see extra space.�
Feb 2, 2016
ElectricLove What I'm looking into would be a pack of ~12kwh capacity that would weigh 100lbs, it isn't a huge booster pack and it will fit within the confines of the trunk and still leave a less tiny than the currently tiny amount of space to store a few things (goal would be to ensure the soft-top and charging cords fit in at a minimum).
My Roadster has a trailer hitch as well! But I don't like the idea of having HV wiring exposed between the trailer and the car itself, maybe for a generator with an inertia kill-switch but I'd not like to have a mass of batteries out there (trailers are just so much easier to "lose control of").
�
Feb 2, 2016
dpeilow OK any British Roadster owners want to own up to that picture?�
Feb 2, 2016
ElectricLove The gentleman I bought it from, but I don't think he is on the forums... I haven't towed with it yet myself but will be doing so this weekend as we are moving, I'll definitely get photos (but I still have the cool UK plates on it!)�
Feb 2, 2016
supersnoop Adding weight behind the rear wheels is terrible when it comes to handling. Perhaps if it was removable so you only had it back there when absolutely necessary, but it's too big of a trade off for me to even consider.�
Feb 2, 2016
ElectricLove My intention would be for it to be absolutely removable, it could be only added when necessary, maybe as a "rescue" pack or used only for an extended road-trip (ie. Phoenix to LA or LA-SF). However, for the drivers who aren't sticklers on handling (the commuter-only types) it may be a practical application to leave it installed and take some of the wear/tear off the main battery pack, I would probably do it this way personally but I certainly see the value in having it "hot-swappable" and easy to leave at home in the garage!�
Feb 2, 2016
gregd The electric equivalent of the proverbial 1 gallon gas can? How would it hook up?�
Feb 2, 2016
ElectricLove Ha, awesome analogy!
It would have to integrate with the DC rails in the car, best way to access that is by adding a 4th "port" on the side of the PEM and affixing the input from the battery pack directly to the same input as the main HV pack. Would also have to have the Tesla monitoring the relays on the 2ndary pack (in concert with the primary pack), and of course the 2ndary pack would have its own BMS and would have to have the ability to open its contactors when appropriate...�
Feb 2, 2016
Mark77a Barry, the UK owner used to take it to his partners home in Scotland from London.
I'm glad he passed on the trailer hitch with the car.�
Feb 3, 2016
jeremyz I meant underneath the fans. There's probably enough space behind/below them for a little battery pack if you're using modern cells. Attaching to the rear subframe would be weird though.
How its made Electric Roadsters Tesla elecric car - YouTube
As to Supersnoop's point about it being a bad idea to make the car more rear weight biased, that's totally true. Driving the RUF Yellowbird in Gran Turismo definitely shows that.�
Feb 3, 2016
MLAUTO
An inch below the fans is the belly pan. The only room is next to the fans, but that is needed for airflow.
I've tried to come up with an air filter system for the cooling fans, but there is just not much room.�
Feb 5, 2016
m0rph And 2.5 Roadsters have the ARB running around the fans. There is no space there..�
Feb 7, 2016
wiztecy I'm sorry, but I was all for these guys in the beginning 'Gruber' and ElectricLove promoting the company/technology. But now I've changed my view, this is wrong in what they're doing in terms of falsely representing themselves which I personally find unethical. Question is would you trust someone working on your $100+k car who uses these tactics? I hate to say it but people who use these tactics should be banned from any website where they they falsely represent themselves. ElectricLove may be possibly innocent here, but, you have to know who and what your boss is doing here. I myself don't like it.
PEM Failure - Page 8
�
Feb 7, 2016
BartJ Come on give these guys a break.
the roadster community is so small, so how the hell should he advertise his services ?
should he make a tv commercial or what ?
be happy that there are companies likes this, that might offer cheaper alternatives for PEM repair.
tmc is probably the only way to reach tesla roadster owners .
if you know a other way wiztecy, let us know !
- but I agree with the fact that should be honest when posting en say clearly who they are and what they stand for.�
Feb 7, 2016
bonnie That's the better way that wiztecy is asking for. It feels wrong to pretend to be an outside party, singing the praises of the company, when it's actually the CEO. It also feels wrong to make bold statements in threads like 'Tesla won't repair PEMs', when they do.
A good business shouldn't need to do stuff like that.�
Feb 7, 2016
wiztecy
+1
People who represent themselves falsely hurt those who try to represent themselves honestly. The CEO of Gruber saw how we were disgusted with his SPAM tactics. Do you understand why they call it SPAM? The masses don't eat SPAM, do you? I don't want to eat SPAM nor receive it in my email. Getting back to the point, the CEO of Gruber had a chance to defend and respond to his crude advertising practices that many have responded they DO NOT approve of. Instead of replying back, he used ElectricLove as his correspondent. I as well as others didn't know that the CEO of Gruber was even a member here. He has NOT contributed to any discussions but rather, has misrepresented himself as a 'customer' of Gruber who was satisfied with Gruber's service. In my opinion that is wrong and very misrepresenting of a member here on TMC. What does this guy think, we were just born yesterday? People on TMC are rather savvy and look out for one another which I highly appreciate. I don't want this site going down the toilet by people who have one motive on this site, to market their own business. Gruber could have been a sponsor of TMC but didn't choose to be. I would highly suggest they don't become one since I don't want any sponsor on TMC to offer their services when they show poor judgement and lack of respect for others on the site.
I don't trust anyone to work on my cars or my Roadster, even Tesla! But I know that if Tesla screws something up they have money in the bank and a positive image they're trying to hold on to and represent that. Gruber, not so much. If your Roadster catches fire, is destroyed, and the Roadster then catches your house on fire and possibly your neighbors house on fire do you think Gruber has enough money in the bank or even insurance to cover the losses??
Think first about who you give your money to and the possibilities.
If they were an honest company trying to build up clients and a positive reputation, then you give up some trust for them to build it up by their actions. I was a member who believed in the latter with this company, but now I'm fully a Roadster owner who's swayed in the other direction. I don't support these types of companies. How many companies have I given my money to through SPAM tactics. ZERO. But if you like buying herbal Viagra though the Internet via SPAM then go ahead and give your business to these guys....
Note. Businesses who market their business in an ethical positive manner build their business slowly but by word of mouth their well educated clients built up exponentially without paid advertising or SPAM. Companies who use SPAM tactics and unethical practices build their business faster in the beginning with uneducated customers, however, that type of business then tapers off and begins loosing customers as the paint starts to peel off the frontage of the company.
I'm 100% with Mark now curious how Gruber got his email. Its companies like Gruber that make people like Mark not contribute freely and openly to a group and that loss is detrimental to good honest people who are ethical and have proper morals.�
Feb 7, 2016
Chickenlittle There are threads on the site to advertise products and services. That is where those posts belong�
Feb 9, 2016
markwj I think that pretty much sums it up for me.�
Feb 10, 2016
ElectricLove Well, to be fair racevpr does drive a Roadster, it is his daily driver car AND we have repaired his PEM... I'm not saying that I consider this to be an appropriate tactic, I'm only saying it isn't 100% false/misleading, this is genuinely a Tesla Roadster owner who has had his PEM repaired by Gruber Power...�
Feb 10, 2016
supersnoop I call shenanigans.
He referred to Gruber in the third person. That's knowingly and obviously deceitful. It is 100% misleading.�
Feb 10, 2016
wiztecy The New York Times
Give Yourself 5 Stars? Online, It Might Cost You
�I celebrate myself, and sing myself,� wrote Walt Whitman, America�s great bard of self-promotion. As the world goes ever more digital, quite a few businesses are adopting that philosophy � hiring a veritable chorus of touts to sing their nonexistent praises and lure in customers.
New York regulators will announce on Monday the most comprehensive crackdown to date on deceptive reviews on the Internet. Agreements have been reached with 19 companies to cease their misleading practices and pay a total of $350,000 in penalties.
The yearlong investigation encompassed companies that create fake reviews as well as the clients that buy them. Among those signing the agreements are a charter bus operator, a teeth-whitening service, a laser hair-removal chain and an adult entertainment club. Also signing are several reputation-enhancement firms that place fraudulent reviews on sites like Google, Yelp, Citysearch and Yahoo.
....
Business Ethics Book:
This talks about companies being deceitful and unethical, posting to customers as if they were a customer to prop up the company with positive feedback and reviews....
Business Ethics - K. Praveen Parboteeah, John B. Cullen - Google Books
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The Roadster community is a small one, why would you try to pull a fast one on people whom your trying to build trust with. I'm all for someone small who wants to add their services and contribute to a community in a positive fashion. Looking at Gruber's website, it gave me an impression of a scam website off the bat.... But I still gave them the benefit of the doubt. But when you start to connect the dots of all this it does not look good nor is it a business I want to support or give a dime to. Even if these were 'honest' mistakes, it show they have poor decision making skills. Would you want someone like that tinkering around with your expensive ride? I don't trust them at all and never will. Period. Nothing more needs to be said.
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+1 Exactly. If someone sees the opposite, there's something wrong in the way you perceive people and things.�
Feb 10, 2016
ElectricLove I agree, it is deceitful... I didn't say I agree with it, its something I again advised against. But, to be totally honest, again, he is a roadster owner and we have done a PEM repair on his PEM... He just also happens to be associated with the company...�
Feb 10, 2016
bonnie "To be totally honest", this is just as ethical as a chef giving himself a great review because he likes the food he cooks.�
Feb 10, 2016
Habious
Wait...he also just happens to OWN THE COMPANY. He doesn't just work there. He's not mopping floors.�
Feb 10, 2016
wiztecy Gruber Power Services review
I said what?: Gruber Power Services review
Glassdoor review:
Cons
Company is rapidly changing for the worse. The owner is lost in past times and upper management has recently changed to someone whom is in over their head. All of the new management team left due to the companies instability the manager I looked up to left because he felt it was going down hill. The CEO asked me to work off the clock and I followed.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gruber-Power-Services-Reviews-E719419.htm�
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