teslamotorclub: Not so sure anymore if I should get the P100D when I read all these threads... part 1

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
Click to expand...

Tesla�s Head of Communications departs

They do have a 3-4 person PR department so you are not far off. I knew more than my OA about the car.

There are trade offs. There's a different set of exclusivity that tesla has over others (at least for one more year). Have to make your choice.

Good thing is you have 1 week of trouble free decision time and 1-2 month of decision time that will only cost you $2500. Which is about 4 hours of deprecation in the first week. So in big picture not that much.
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What you said is basically accurate. It's something I get annoyed with, especially since we bought two $120k+ Teslas over the course of 24 months. Many here will tell you that Tesla isn't a luxury car company, don't expect things you'd get from Mercedes or BMW. I was pretty disappointed when they gave us a bottom of the barrel rental car when our P85D was in for service.

If you're an EV fan, you get a lot in exchange for your money with Tesla. The technology is cutting edge and the performance is outstanding. But you do not get a premium car company experience with Tesla. If that's a top priority, you will not be happy with the P100D.
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@Seashepherd
I understand your point. But I do have to say the service was better two years ago when I bought my P85+. It was the top model at the time and I continue to be very satisfied with it. Tesla service and support are top notch for all models. That is why they maintain a net promoter score of 96.5. Much higher than Apple and Disney that are known for their high customer satisfaction.

The issue all owners now face is the diluting of Tesla resources against a broader fleet of Teslas on the road. We see it in cues at Superchargers, delays at Service Centers to get appointments and many other areas where volume has outpaced resources. It's too bad, because it was better two years ago. Will it get better? Anyone's call. But Tesla is taking steps like making Supercharging an option on future vehicles. And I am sure they will be taking other steps to continue service levels even though the fleet volume outpaces resources.

As far as better treatment with a higher priced Tesla? Not really. They treat all customers the same and attempt to achieve high standards. Their benchmark is Apple, Disney, etc. Far higher than any ICE manufacturer.
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
Click to expand...

What are your expectations/worries about the AP update? That they'll remove features?
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Yes, there are some major issues.

My dad almost sold his two P85Ds and cancelled his 2 model 3 orders today after the lousy service getting his new tires installed.

But - I still have to say it is the best car I have ever owned and the one I like driving the most. Way better than my Mercedes or BMW.
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My Las Vegas service center experiences have been flawless. Much better than any BMW or merc stealer "dealer" experience I have ever had. You will not be disappointed. Sad to see a few placing giving out ice loaners :/ I have never gotten anything but a nearly fully loaded model s loaner every time I've been to my sc.
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Thanks so far, very informative!!
I'm too very concerned about Teslas ability so scale, and I forgot to mention this concern. That's why I want to do the 2 year lease. This way I can change back to a BMW, whatever, as my ski mobile ( hopefully by then they have Ap, too) in case *sugar* hits the fence with Tesla flooding the market with bargain priced S's and the 3's. Here in Colorado we only have one supercharger between Denver and Vail as far as I know, and I haven't heard of any effort to bring in more soon. I expect waiting lines already this winter...

Yes Alketi,I'm afraid Tesla will dial back the Ap. They gave me a p90d for a weekend to test. I drove it up to Vail, and it was a game changer because of the AP. On the way up I drove fast, in AP, but hand right at steering wheel. On the way back, in crawling heavy traffic it was absolutely fantastic to let go off the steering wheel and to relax...

Time is ticking, I only have until the 12th to decide on the lease according to Tesla...;O)
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Sold the BMW and MB. They can't even start to match the driving experience of a Model S.

We now own 4 and have a Model 3 reserved.

The service I'm sure varries depending on the individual service centers. My service experience has been exceptional and I always get a nice Tesla loaner when they are working on my cars.
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
Click to expand...

I hear it varies somewhat service center to service center. Sadly, it doesn't appear they all give 5 star service. I have been very happy with my experience. I had a minor issue with my car late on a Sunday night. They DROVE to MY house with a Tesla loaner and showed up at almost midnight. Took my car, left the loaner, fixed it over night, and swapped it back with me at 7am so I wouldn't be late for work Monday morning. It was all done in less than 8 hours from initial call. This was a few months ago, earlier this year. Do other car companies fix cars in the middle of the night on the weekend? I've always had a Tesla loaner and they seem to know me by name at the service center. I've never bought another $100k + car, but then again, I've never had this good of service with anyone else. I'm sure there are things others do that Tesla doesn't and that may rub some folks the wrong way; however, I've yet to enjoy driving another car as much as I love this Tesla. It's not perfect, and it's lacking in some areas, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else at this point...
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Your committing to a two year lease. I wouldn't worry about missing the next AP hardware. It will be even more advanced in two years.
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ShotgunF15E said: ?

I hear it varies somewhat service center to service center. Sadly, it doesn't appear they all give 5 star service. I have been very happy with my experience. I had a minor issue with my car late on a Sunday night. They DROVE to MY house with a Tesla loaner and showed up at almost midnight. Took my car, left the loaner, fixed it over night, and swapped it back with me at 7am so I wouldn't be late for work Monday morning. It was all done in less than 8 hours from initial call. This was a few months ago, earlier this year. Do other car companies fix cars in the middle of the night on the weekend? I've always had a Tesla loaner and they seem to know me by name at the service center. I've never bought another $100k + car, but then again, I've never had this good of service with anyone else. I'm sure there are things others do that Tesla doesn't and that may rub some folks the wrong way; however, I've yet to enjoy driving another car as much as I love this Tesla. It's not perfect, and it's lacking in some areas, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else at this point...
Click to expand...

Pretty amazing story.

But why does service center know your name. Numerous repairs or regular service? If I got a tesla loaner all the time I literally would enjoy my car getting worked on, but closest SC is 3 hrs away.
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Elon Musk [email�protected] Sep 1
Finishing Autopilot blog postponed to end of weekend

436 retweets3,220 likes

Tim Urban [email�protected] 1h1 hour ago
@elonmusk I've rubbed off on you. Sorry.

12 retweets221 likes

Elon MuskVerified account[email�protected]
@waitbutwhy It's been a little crazy lately
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Seashepherd said: ?

Yes Alketi,I'm afraid Tesla will dial back the Ap. They gave me a p90d for a weekend to test. I drove it up to Vail, and it was a game changer because of the AP. On the way up I drove fast, in AP, but hand right at steering wheel. On the way back, in crawling heavy traffic it was absolutely fantastic to let go off the steering wheel and to relax...
Click to expand...

Seashepherd, you can read about the Autopilot 8.0 information leak here, including added features and a short description of the improvements. The only negative thing about AP 8.0 that's leaked thus far is that Tesla will temporarily disable the feature if the driver ignores the warnings to keep their hands on the wheel. This will be done in order to prevent people from sleeping/not paying attention.

Exclusive on Tesla 8.0 update: new Autopilot features, biggest UI refresh since launch and much more

There's also a long thread about it here. Get started -- you have till Monday at midnight to finish reading.

Firmware 8.0 information leak

Musk is the only person I follow on Twitter. To your criticism, he has a bad habit of giving specific deadlines in advance, like "this weekend", or "today", when he should just say "soon". So, he always misses those specific deadlines because, running two companies, something unexpected always comes up, like a production issue, or the rocket explosion last week. That said, there has been no one like him since I've been alive, and that includes Steve Jobs. Leaving aside the vision, the daring, and pursuit of world-changing technology, he's risked his personal fortune for his companies at least twice. Tesla, more so than any other company, perhaps in modern history, is in line to disrupt three industries at once. They just need to execute.

BTW, a 2-year lease would work out well as I think 2018 is shaping up to be an automotive inflection point, and just speaking for Tesla, their next-gen autopilot will be the showstopper and will almost certainly ship sometime before July of next year.
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number12 said: ?

Pretty amazing story.

But why does service center know your name. Numerous repairs or regular service? If I got a tesla loaner all the time I literally would enjoy my car getting worked on, but closest SC is 3 hrs away.
Click to expand...

Nope, I've only been in there twice, both for very minor things. I think they just try to go the extra effort to make people feel part of the family.
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I don't know about the experience of other's but the only real complaint with service is long wait times for an appointment. If they put me in a loaner it's a P85 or better. My last loaner was a brand new facelifted P90DL. I gave them a $50,000 car for service and they stuck me in a $140,000 loaner.

Century West BMW consistently put me in bare bones 320i's with literally not a single option. To raise your seat you would need to pull a crank and lift your body off of it to get it to go up. I wasn't even aware that was a thing any more.

Elon's late tweets don't affect your driving experience. Neither do long service waits unless your car is chronically in for service.
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I've had zero reasons to have service in my 2016 70D, FWIW in over 13,000 miles. This has been the most reliable car I've ever owned - I think Tesla has really improved on the quality end of the Model S. I too enjoyed great euro luxury car service - but I much prefer having an electric car which never needs it. The Model X is another story but the Model S has been in production almost 5 years now and they seem to have ironed out the kinks on the latest builds.
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@Seashepherd
Go back to germans, Tesla is not for you.
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WarpedOne said: ?

@Seashepherd
Go back to germans, Tesla is not for you.
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Luxury owners more likely to let autonomous cars do the driving
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calisnow said: ?

I've had zero reasons to have service in my 2016 70D, FWIW in over 13,000 miles. This has been the most reliable car I've ever owned - I think Tesla has really improved on the quality end of the Model S. I too enjoyed great euro luxury car service - but I much prefer having an electric car which never needs it. The Model X is another story but the Model S has been in production almost 5 years now and they seem to have ironed out the kinks on the latest builds.
Click to expand...

Got my S85D last September (11 1/2 months ago now) and almost have 12,000 miles on it. I too think this has been the least maintenance demanding and best performing vehicle I have ever had the privilege of owning. With at least four years of constant manufacturing and improvements and refining their assembly, the model S will be a very reliable vehicle for at least as long as any ICE on the road today. I will definitely chose to consider a second EV when it comes time to replace her. In addition, the Mrs. loves riding in it so much that she has her reservation in for the Model 3 sometime in the next year and a half.
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I think OP should update his location so we can see what service might be like for him.

I've been once (16 months, 25k miles). They gave me a P85 (no AP but not shabby). The car was done later that day and they swapped my car out at my work. I was unavailable and they left the key at the front desk. They swapped my gym clothes and a few other things.

Never has BMW done that for me. My blood boiled in my 2 years of 545 ownership. I had a 2 week loaner after the first day of ownership. I went to the dealer 8 times (estimate) in 2 years - brake fluid change, software updates, multiple oil changes, real problems, returns for dealer caused problems. Swore I'd never buy a BMW again - and I haven't. Never once did BMW change out my car at work.

The Tesla experience for me has been pure luxury.

We shouldn't paint such a broad stroke here. Sure the CA experience has showed a lot of growing pains.

Just went back and looked and the skiing reference and traffic seems to be LA.
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WarpedOne said: ?

@Seashepherd
Go back to germans, Tesla is not for you.
Click to expand...

That's kind of a dickish attitude, especially when it's not exactly like the complaints he has are completely unfounded.
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
Click to expand...

You're not in any way "wrong" to feel as you do, but if you really do feel this way then Tesla may very well be the wrong choice of car
for you. It seems like what you're looking for and what Tesla ownership offers may not be a very good match.
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A few things:
1. This forum is a magnifying glass for everything Tesla. Both the good and bad, but we all know what gets talked about the most. Just like family!
2. It is not a luxury car, but more so the most reliable supercar/exotic in the world that you can buy while wearing your underwear, for 1/10th the price.
3. You can do things, driving things, easily, that you can't do any any other car. At least not without making large unwanted amounts of copious noise.
4. You have this forum. Hissy fits aside, it has been a tremendous and positive resource. If you read between the lines, there are people truly in the know more than just lurking, but helping.
5. You get a Tesla, you get to live in the future, but with a slow browser.
6. It's just two years.
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Buy a Mercedes bro. Tried and true. No surprises. You know what you're getting.

You're not mentally ready for the "Tesla Experience". Without hesitation I admit the car isn't for everyone. I am still amazed my wife loves the car (it's hers). She can pick apart every detail that was missed with any product out there. Somehow, she still loves it even with it's faults. The good still far outweighs the bad to her. She still doesn't know how half the stuff in the car works but she loves stepping on the go pedal and leaving people in the dust.

If they could ever get my wipers to work without chatter I think she'd have nothing to complain about. And before everyone pipes in with their suggestions we've tried literally everything already.
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If "luxury" (gawd I hate that term) is what you're after then a Tesla is not the right car for you. You will not be happy. Telsa treats me well, but at no point do I feel like ever entered the "Grey Poupon Zone".

And honestly, I'd rather they spend the money on product development than on perfumed toilet paper and other idiotic "luxury" frippery.
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sandpiper said: ?

at no point do I feel like [ I] ever entered the "Grey Poupon Zone"
Click to expand...

No, Tesla is more of the artisinal-whole-grain-mustard-with-bourbon-and-ghost-pepper kind of experience.
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This is all about location, location, location... If the OP is in CA... Forget about it, the standard they are looking for (FWIW, I don't think there is anything wrong with the standard), just doesn't exist with the vast majority of CA service centers. If you live outside of CA, but in the US and reasonably near a local service center then it's a different situation all together...

So again, location, location, location...

Jeff
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Seashepherd said: ?

even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S.
Click to expand...

I honestlyagree with most of the things you said, in terms of frustration. However the quote above is where you're dead off... Tesla was never marketed as an ultra luxury car, the damn thing doesn't even have near a quarter of the "luxury" comforts of an S550 or a 7 series. You're paying for the materials to create a 100 kwh battery, the metals and materials for the ludicrous mode, etc;

I agree the car probably shouldn't be near 150k based on the cost of its less equipped brothers/sisters, but if you think that as well (as you mentioned), then why not buy a 70k model S and save yourself the headache and high expectations from an automotive startup company?
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Racerx22b said: ?

Buy a Mercedes bro. Tried and true. No surprises. You know what you're getting.

You're not mentally ready for the "Tesla Experience". Without hesitation I admit the car isn't for everyone. I am still amazed my wife loves the car (it's hers). She can pick apart every detail that was missed with any product out there. Somehow, she still loves it even with it's faults. The good still far outweighs the bad to her. She still doesn't know how half the stuff in the car works but she loves stepping on the go pedal and leaving people in the dust.

If they could ever get my wipers to work without chatter I think she'd have nothing to complain about. And before everyone pipes in with their suggestions we've tried literally everything already.
Click to expand...

Everything? Have you tried moving to the desert?
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That's kind of a dickish attitude, especially when it's not exactly like the complaints he has are completely unfounded.
Click to expand...

Complaints may not be unfounded but for sure they are 100% misdirected.
On this forum there is nada, zero, zilch, that we can do to help. Nothing.

What use is there to complain about the issues here? If the man is not capable to live wtih the issuse, the best advise is to walk away from the car.

I am not interested in hearing yet another guy crying how he must wait whole month for antoher set of tires. WE HERE CANNOT HELP.

Clear?
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My experience has been outstanding so far. Service has been great, follows up quickly and great communication. My 2015 A8L has been in the shop for 8 days with little communication and the absolute crappiest car Audi makes as a loaner. Also the most fun car to drive. Remember the Internet mantra that those with complaints are the most likely to post, so as generally balanced as TMC appears to be, rabid fans will tend to be the most demanding and critical. That isn't inappropriate when you are spending that much for a car, but just something to keep in mind. Besides, if you want a real reason not to get the car, it only uses 802.11g wifi. I mean,seriously....hello 2009!
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My service has also been outstandingly good from the Houston North SC. However, there are still very few Teslas in this part of the woods.
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The service I have received from Tesla is a 180 degree difference from the service I received from BMW. The BMW service was so bad that I would not consider another BMW again.
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I've had excellent service at 5 different locations in 4 states including two in Calif.
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Hey! I know.

Instead of getting one P100D, get two S60's instead for the same price (or less?)

If one needs to go the shop, drive the other, and never worry about cheap rental car substitutions.

Or leave winter tires on one, and summers on the other... rotate whole cars instead of rubber.

Or use it as "active parts self-insurance plan"... if you have a crash, you've got everything you need on hand to repair without waiting.
(Or just dispose of the crashed car and drive the other.)

Or, you know.. whatever.
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WarpedOne said: ?

@Seashepherd
Go back to germans, Tesla is not for you.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Tesla isn't the thing the OP. Maybe a Bentley or something.
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I have had excellent Service @ both Mt. Kisco, NY and Paramus, NJ. I just completed an update to Ludicrous for my P85D. My loaner was a Model S and was fine. Tesla as a new high growth company is going through a learning curve. I have seen service improve and a sincere focus on customer satisfaction. I love my Model S. For the few bumps in the road along the way, I have no regrets. It is an amazing vehicle - made in America. If you need to be pampered and coddled, then I agree - go back to the Germans. If you want the best high tech driving enthusiasts car in the world - buy a Tesla. It is freak'ing AWESOME. Oh and that AP question - just realize that with every release, improvements are "downloaded" to your car. Nobody else comes close to adding new features. Oh yes - just buy it because it will protect you better than any other vehicle in the event of a crash. The stats do not lie. There will always be folks that drive too fast or do stupid things. Look at how the Germans are scrambling to catch Tesla. It hit them right in their blindspot. Enough said. Good day.
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Thanks for the input.
I'm referring to the price tag when I say Luxury. The 100 is certainly in the elite, luxury, 1% whatever you want to call it, class with its price tag. And why would this car not be right for me if I ask about the experiences of other owners?
Let me tell you about my experience today. Tesla offered me an S for this weekend to drive since it's the last weekend before the lease offer ends. No one followed up. I just tried to call the Denver sales center and their phone number wasn't working. So I called the service center and they gave me the same, non working phone number. Then I called Tesla Palo Alto. First phone number didn't work either, second finally worked. Yes, it's true,we are experiencing phone problems they said. So what about my Tesla test drive for this weekend, I planned for it, and haven't heard back, I asked. Sorry, can't help you she answered...
No judging here, just telling you about my experience. Again, this is something I have never experienced with the other Marques. I really like this car, I think the AP is amazing, that's why I'm willing to pay that much for not much else than AP (and power), but I'm afraid that I will have many service related headaches on the way. What if my car is in service for 4 weeks, will they still charge me my monthly $2000+ payment?
Your input, except the one of a couple trolls like Warped, are very valuable and I very much appreciate you guys taking your time!
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demundus said: ?

I honestlyagree with most of the things you said, in terms of frustration. However the quote above is where you're dead off... Tesla was never marketed as an ultra luxury car, the damn thing doesn't even have near a quarter of the "luxury" comforts of an S550 or a 7 series. You're paying for the materials to create a 100 kwh battery, the metals and materials for the ludicrous mode, etc;

I agree the car probably shouldn't be near 150k based on the cost of its less equipped brothers/sisters, but if you think that as well (as you mentioned), then why not buy a 70k model S and save yourself the headache and high expectations from an automotive startup company?
Click to expand...

You're really paying for the R&D, tooling and capital costs to develop and start manufacturing of a completely new vehicle design and to fund the development of the follow-on vehicles required as part of a full model line-up. But for those costs, the Tesla would be quite a lot less costly than it is. I'm quite okay with that.
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hmmm
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There are expensive things that are not luxurious -- they just cost a lot. If you're thinking the main thing you're getting for your
money is luxury than you're likely to be disappointed.

Are you seriously equating phone system problems (almost certainly problems with an outside vendor) with problems with either the car
itself or the company that builds and supports it? No one at the store you dealt with gave you their personal cell #? That's really odd.

Again, even if you think all you're getting for your money is AP (not all that important in many owners' eyes -- nice, for sure, but
"frosting" rather than "cake") and power then you're still likely to be disappointed. Or maybe not -- if you take a leap of faith you
may discover that the reasons to love the car are a) different than what you thought and b) kind of hard to explain to people who
haven't owned or driven one. It sounds a little silly, but you'll hear quite a few people here echo these words: you'll be driving the
future.

Regarding service, I haven't had my car all that long so I can't really speak meaningfully from personal experience. The impression
I get from these boards is they're mostly very reliable and most people never need anything but the minimal routine maintenance.
In the long run you can expect to be doing a lot less maintenance than with any similar ICE car.
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Seashepherd said: ?

Thanks for the input.
I'm referring to the price tag when I say Luxury. The 100 is certainly in the elite, luxury, 1% whatever you want to call it, class with its price tag. And why would this car not be right for me if I ask about the experiences of other owners?
Let me tell you about my experience today. Tesla offered me an S for this weekend to drive since it's the last weekend before the lease offer ends. No one followed up. I just tried to call the Denver sales center and their phone number wasn't working. So I called the service center and they gave me the same, non working phone number. Then I called Tesla Palo Alto. First phone number didn't work either, second finally worked. Yes, it's true,we are experiencing phone problems they said. So what about my Tesla test drive for this weekend, I planned for it, and haven't heard back, I asked. Sorry, can't help you she answered...
No judging here, just telling you about my experience. Again, this is something I have never experienced with the other Marques. I really like this car, I think the AP is amazing, that's why I'm willing to pay that much for not much else than AP (and power), but I'm afraid that I will have many service related headaches on the way. What if my car is in service for 4 weeks, will they still charge me my monthly $2000+ payment?
Your input, except the one of a couple trolls like Warped, are very valuable and I very much appreciate you guys taking your time!
Click to expand...

Owning a Tesla is NOT like owning a Mercedes. The service, in my personal experience is very good, but not "luxury". With Mercedes you're paying for all of the hoity toity luxury whatnot that comes with owning a high end status vehicle. Tesla is not that. If that's important to you, then buy a Mercedes.

A Tesla has some really unique and revolutionary features - but the fit, finish and frippery of a $140K Tesla is more that of a 50-60K car. When you buy a Tesla you get to be part of a technology revolution, and to own a stinking fast and really fun car.

To each their own. Tesla is what it is; they're a new company doing their damnedest to produce a great machine, screwing some things up and getting better. Most of us here value what Tesla is, warts and all, far more than the silly frills and perceived status that come with a high end Mercedes. With Tesla, you're paying, partly, to help fund the revolution.
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RogerHScott said: ?

Regarding service, I haven't had my car all that long so I can't really speak meaningfully from personal experience. The impression
I get from these boards is they're mostly very reliable and most people never need anything but the minimal routine maintenance.
In the long run you can expect to be doing a lot less maintenance than with any similar ICE car.
Click to expand...

I've had mine nearly 2 years. It's not been perfect, but pretty darned close. And the service has been significantly better than it's been with any other car that I've had. But I've also never owned a true "luxury" car either. I've never wanted one.
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sandpiper said: ?

Owning a Tesla is NOT like owning a Mercedes. The service, in my personal experience is very good, but not "luxury". With Mercedes you're paying for all of the hoity toity luxury whatnot that comes with owning a high end status vehicle. Tesla is not that. If that's important to you, then buy a Mercedes.
Click to expand...

I never felt that with either of the Mercedes I've owned (most recently, a GL450). Granted, it was only $75,000 and not $125,000. Still, I'm not sure my local dealership is capable of much more service. They're fine, just not particularly "luxury."

Certainly, buying a Tesla is buying into a growing movement that has some rough edges. Some people find those rough edges charming, or least overcoming them and the rest of the journey to be something worthwhile. Understandably, many people would not.

In many ways, this mirrors the discussion on interiors. Some people find the minimalist Tesla interior to be... not luxurious enough. I sit in my GL450, I look at the showroom Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Volvo and BMW competition and I just don't get it - many of the same plastics in the same places, same leather in the same places, in some cases more leather in the wrong places which means they will wear faster, and maybe some more wood I never touch? Definitely a lot more buttons. Tons more buttons. I don't find that luxurious. But the infotainment and UI interactions are far, far worse and frustrating. In many ways, far more difficult to operate while driving. But to each their own.
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Luxury is the wrong word, maybe High End is better. I don't think I'm a 'luxury' guy, my current daily driver is a BMW X6M and my (almost) daily EV (hybrid) is a BMW I8. Some of the other cars range from BMW Z1 to Morgan Threewheeler, not exactly Mercedes S Class Luxury Sofa Seat ride...
Anyway, I just got reminded that often the individuals make or break a dealership / service center. I just got a call back from a really nice guy who I know for a while at Tesla and he's trying to get me the car. These are the people that Tesla and all other Marques need to be thankful for! So hopefully I will be able to make my decision by the 12th. Thanks again for all the input, it really helped.
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Seashepherd said: ?

Anyway, I just got reminded that often the individuals make or break a dealership / service center.
Click to expand...

No truer words said. It's the people. They can make a McDonalds almost a gourmet experience or a Wolfgang Pucks a McDonalds.

Hope it works for you.
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Camera-Cruiser said: ?

No truer words said. It's the people. They can make a McDonalds almost a gourmet experience or a Wolfgang Pucks a McDonalds.

Hope it works for you.
Click to expand...

This might be going just a bit too far...
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Seashepherd said: ?

Luxury is the wrong word, maybe High End is better. I don't think I'm a 'luxury' guy, my current daily driver is a BMW X6M and my (almost) daily EV (hybrid) is a BMW I8. Some of the other cars range from BMW Z1 to Morgan Threewheeler, not exactly Mercedes S Class Luxury Sofa Seat ride...
Anyway, I just got reminded that often the individuals make or break a dealership / service center. I just got a call back from a really nice guy who I know for a while at Tesla and he's trying to get me the car. These are the people that Tesla and all other Marques need to be thankful for! So hopefully I will be able to make my decision by the 12th. Thanks again for all the input, it really helped.
Click to expand...

This is honestly the ticket. I've had some run around between different Tesla SvC's, but if I want a bottom line answer, I call my guy, who gave me his cell, if I really have an issue that needs to be resolved. These people are crazy amounts of slammed, and there are alot of a-holes out there making their job very very difficult. Connect with someone at your local service center, and hang on for dear life
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A couple of thoughts...

1) Tesla never actually uses the "luxury" label with it's cars. They always say "premium." and it's true. It's a premium product in the sense that it's got very unique and valuable features and qualities. It's not really trying to be a vehicle that pampers you in the traditional luxury car kind of way.

2) People keep saying they have certain expectations for a $100K or $130K car. But Teslas are really $50-60K cars. A guy buying a base model S will get the same level of service and attention as the guy with the P100DL. (The cost difference is mostly in performance options. And I think we can all agree that part of the cost is a bargain compared to traditional supercars.) Nearly all of the components between the two cars are exactly the same. Our expectation levels should be that of a $50-60K car.
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I think Tesla should be trying to poach someone from Lexus' dealer ops/customer service division, as I think they (and to a lesser degree Acura and Infiniti) hit the sweet spot on 'Luxury' dealer interactions, in a relaxed way. The little touches in the service areas at their dealers are great, like my previous Audi, but I found interacting with their Infiniti people to be less 'snobby'. And the Lexus sales staff that I've dealt with recently (especially being a younger guy) much less stand-offish than the German makes a difference. Tesla has been great in this regard as well, with special call-outs to the Buena Park, CA location and my local Palm Springs team. So, as others have said, with Tesla service, a lot is based on geography.
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Seashepherd said: ?

Thanks for the input.
I'm referring to the price tag when I say Luxury. The 100 is certainly in the elite, luxury, 1% whatever you want to call it, class with its price tag. And why would this car not be right for me if I ask about the experiences of other owners?
Let me tell you about my experience today. Tesla offered me an S for this weekend to drive since it's the last weekend before the lease offer ends. No one followed up. I just tried to call the Denver sales center and their phone number wasn't working. So I called the service center and they gave me the same, non working phone number. Then I called Tesla Palo Alto. First phone number didn't work either, second finally worked. Yes, it's true,we are experiencing phone problems they said. So what about my Tesla test drive for this weekend, I planned for it, and haven't heard back, I asked. Sorry, can't help you she answered...
No judging here, just telling you about my experience. Again, this is something I have never experienced with the other Marques. I really like this car, I think the AP is amazing, that's why I'm willing to pay that much for not much else than AP (and power), but I'm afraid that I will have many service related headaches on the way. What if my car is in service for 4 weeks, will they still charge me my monthly $2000+ payment?
Your input, except the one of a couple trolls like Warped, are very valuable and I very much appreciate you guys taking your time!
Click to expand...

I test drove a car while on vacation in SoCal. We were really just out looking, not really planning on buying right now. We were also offered a car for 24 hours. No pressure, they won't call and bug you. We called and took a car for 24 hours. Talked a lot that night and the next morning. When we dropped it off we placed our order for a MS P90DL. Have not been disappointed.
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Tesla's are really fun to drive. I don't anticipate having to go to a service center.

You're only getting a two year lease, so why all the worry?

I would guess you probably won't miss the "dealer experience" where they charge you for every little thing while being extremely nice.

Remember, all those perks cost money, and you are paying for them with your dealer visits.
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sandpiper said: ?

Owning a Tesla is NOT like owning a Mercedes. [...] Tesla is what it is; they're a new company doing their damnedest to produce a great machine, screwing some things up and getting better. Most of us here value what Tesla is, warts and all, far more than the silly frills and perceived status that come with a high end Mercedes. With Tesla, you're paying, partly, to help fund the revolution.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

GM is Windows.
Mercedes is Mac.
Tesla is Linux.

Each OS has its adherents for good reason. I use all three, for very different purposes. I think trying to ask whether a Tesla is "better" than a Mercedes is like asking whether a convertible is "better" than a pickup. Are you going to the beach or hauling drywall?
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ken830 said: ?

2) People keep saying they have certain expectations for a $100K or $130K car. But Teslas are really $50-60K cars. A guy buying a base model S will get the same level of service and attention as the guy with the P100DL. (The cost difference is mostly in performance options. And I think we can all agree that part of the cost is a bargain compared to traditional supercars.) Nearly all of the components between the two cars are exactly the same. Our expectation levels should be that of a $50-60K car.
Click to expand...

I think the service expectation for "a $100k+" vehicle is set by brands like Mercedes and BMW where only a very small fraction of their sales are in the $100k+ range. So they can afford to coddle those customers. With Tesla, I'm guessing close to half their customers paid $100k+ or close to that. Even the cheapest Tesla at the moment is significantly more expensive than the average transaction prices of every full-line luxury brand. Tesla simply can't afford to deliver a "luxury" experience to that large a fraction of their buyers without having to over-build their nascent service infrastructure. And Tesla (correctly) doesn't see that as a priority.
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What you are paying for is a car that offers what no other car does: Freedom from the pump with immense quickness. If you want luxury, you can get that from Mercedes, Audi, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Jaguar or several other companies. Those companies will return your calls and provide courteous service.
I walk in to any other dealer and I can get swarmed with sales people, other people, waiting on me from the moment I walk in. Tesla made me feel like I had to pursue them to buy a car.
But the car. It is like no other.....really. Again, if having a luxury cabin and getting concierge service is your thing, I would try somewhere else.
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One the things I really liked about my Porsche owning experience is I was treated by the dealer the same as someone who bought a much higher end Porsche. Not only that, but Porsche owners themselves treated me like one of them despite the fact that I didn't have a 911 (I had a Cayman S).

They seemed to understand that for the most part what you got with that extra $75K to $100K was speed. With a P100D that's mostly what you're getting aside from that ridiculously silly part about the ventilated seats.

You're not paying a huge amount more than my $90K for luxury or to be treated better. You're getting more speed for the most part.

Give up on getting luxury with a Tesla. It's just not going to be in the ballpark of a $100K Euro sedan. You should also give up it being completely rattle/squeak free. It's just not going to happen just like it won't happen with some Porsche's. The Porsche Cayman I had eventually always rattled because the suspension was so stiff. The Tesla is more prone to rattles since it's really their first car, and there is an art to building a rattle free car. It's going to take Tesla some time before they make anything that gets close to what Lexus can do.

With the Tesla you should also give up on fast repairs because the parts management of Tesla is not great, and is a known issue.

With the Tesla it's about everything else. What you're getting is an amazing drivetrain, and instant torque. You're getting a car that is regularly updated. You're getting a car that you can sit in traffic without polluting the air. You're getting the best lane-steering/tacc system money can buy. Of course you still have to pay attention because it's not even close to failure proof even if it's the best.

I've gotten great service from Tesla, and in fact the last time the tech drove out to my work to fix something. So I have nothing bad to say about that, but my service department is Bellevue, WA and as far as I can tell their one of the best. I've heard the service varies a lot depending on the SC.

In terms of announcements I would hardly call a tweet from anyone very professional. It's pretty sad we live in times where a tweet is counted for anything. It's pretty much just a hype machine whether it's Elon or some election candidate. Don't take the tweets that seriously. It's fun to make fun of Elon for some of them, but it's not something to get worked up about.
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Sorry if I am going off topic.

I want to add one more observation. When buying a product the need for often repeated service Should be a deterrent.

The idea of taking time out of my life to change oil and other stuff is such a drag. Two kids and a ton of obligations means less desire to visit a dealership. Sure they have free coffee, sure the lounge is nice, but I would rather be somewhere else.

With a P 100 D you get Hypercar acceleration at normal Honda Civic maintenance prices. No oil changes, no expensive brakes, no clutch repairs etc. Just brakes and filter.

Dealers want you to come back for more because your car will very likely break down or need expensive maintenance and they want to provide that service. The perks they offer you are paid many times over by the money spent on repairs and maintenance.

There is no free lunch, and the reason everyone is so nice to you at the dealership is because they see you as a dollar sign.

Oddly enough, now that I think if it, that's what happens at a lot of seedy establishments.
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i've received excellent service from both the austin SC and the Denver SC. we frequently use the charging stations in glenwood springs and grand junction on the way to telluride and then en route from boulder to austin. i have had a downright miserable experience with BMW when i used to have a z8 (bmw of austin). tesla has indeed changed since they serviced my roadster in my garage but i'm super happy with them just the same. left a pair of sunglasses in the loaner at the denver SC and they drove them to me that evening to our home in boulder. quite something!
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Seashepherd said: ?

As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month.
Click to expand...

So, I own a 2014 550i M Sport and was considering the i8 until my local BMW gave me one for a day. I was extremely unimpressed with the vehicle. My comment to my long time sales rep was "I can't figure out if this is a hybrid trying to be a sports car or a sports car trying to be a hybrid". The vehicle was sluggish, the technology and everything in my current interior was far superior and I felt as if I were opting for a downgrade. Now granted, the lines of the i8 are incredible, best looking street vehicle on the market without question.

A few days later I drove a P90D and then my local Tesla dealership gave me one for a weekend test drive. I was immediately hooked and in my opinion, there was no comparison to the i8 and I again I felt that I would be downgrading if I had purchased the i8 as I initially planned on doing.

To each is own and YMMV but if you haven't driven a MS I would highly recommend that you do so immediately. You will quickly overcome all of the negative feedback spewing out in the forums and remember.... a lot of owners come to these boards to vent their frustration and I know many people who aren't even on these boards who have an outstanding experience.

Just a little "food for thought".
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My service experience has also been terrific. I drove an M3 in the 90s and had a very good experience with BMW service The Tesla experience has been a little better.

The way I see it when you buy the P100D you're paying for the engineering and performance of the vehicle itself. 2.5 sec 0-60, are you kidding me? The third fastest production car ever built and it's a five-passenger sedan that doesn't use gas or pollute the environment (much)? Those details alone are worth the $150k to me, if only I had $150k to spend on a car...

What the $150k does not buy is a white glove treatment, ultra refined interior, that kind of luxury. Your choice. I'll say that my P85+ has been amazing and puts a smile on my face every day.
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Our MS has been into the SC more times than I can count (which is frustrating) but the people that work at the Dania SC are fantastic and always a pleasure to work with.
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Similar story here: my SC experience have always been good to very good - I never had anything else than a Tesla loaner when servicing my car and a couple of times they came home with a flat bed truck to take it and bring it back late at night to accommodate my schedule.
Now I don't have the experience of a luxury Mercedes treatment neither, but I've driven their cars and there is no way in the world I'll ever go back to driving ICE. As said before if 'luxury' is your thing stay with the germans. AP even in v1 is a game changer on highway driving and stop-and-go traffic, my only regret is that I waited too long to upgrade to it.
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
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I had a 120k Mercedes and serviced it at Mercedes Benz of Westmont (IL). They are the best out of all the dealerships in the area, never had any complaints. I HATED GOING THERE FOR SERVICE - I'm always short on time and between the drive there, getting a loaner, coming back to pick up my car, paperwork etc. I waste about 2 hours every time. That's 2 hours I could spend with my family. How does a fancy waiting area compensate for the lost time and in what universe is this better than Tesla coming to my front door and dropping off a loaner???
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The Chicago team is excellent! Our two Teslas needed the SC for tires, extra keys and wipers that is it. Class act and no surprises. The driving experience is still not getting old. Cruise in AP and have an in depth conversation with family or in manual pass others on country roads with a massive safe margin. IMHO the service center time is very pleasant but is largely irrelevant to the purchase decision. We used to drive a BMW 740 and the MS is a different planet. I can't imagine anybody regretting a P100D.
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@Seashepherd I've previously owned BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi and Lexus.

Mercedes and Lexus service were the best by far, BMW and Porsche were ok, Audi was awful. Tesla is between Audi and Porsche. The last time I was in for service they gave me a Buick rental car and it took them two days to install a very simple upgrade. Not impressive.

The Tesla driving experience is far superior to any of them. The Tesla ownership experience, not so much. The much discussed "direct sale" model does not include any customer service, in fact Tesla really has no customer service department at all, it sort of falls in the cracks between stores that only want to sell you a new car, and service centers that are struggling to fix the cars that are out there.

I yielded to the pressure by the store to place an order, only to take delivery two weeks later (great - that was fast) and18hrs before they introduced the refreshed Model S (my "new" car was instantly old). I took the factory tour and they had "technical problems" that prevented us from seeing the MS line when it turns out they were hiding the refreshed cars, very disingenuous and not the way to treat customers.

Ignore their threats and wait until there is an extended quiet period from Elon, at least a month. He loves to pre-announce everything so if he's not saying anything, then chances are there won't be anything new coming out in the next few months.

You are correct to sit on your order until the firmware 8.0 and AP 2.0 story unfolds further, apparently more is to be revealed on Monday.
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Seashepherd said: ?

So, I'm about to lease a P100D ($150,000) and I'm exited about it. Well, I was...until I started doing my research. I'm unsure for a couple reasons. The main reason is the delay of AP update info. IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional. But what's worse is that no one followed up that tweet. Or have you guys heard from anyone at Tesla? I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
The way Tesla handles their news releases is more amateur than a 3 person web design shop. What are they thinking? Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day? Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
How about a courtesy update?

Another reason is the switch from being a long time BMW, Mercedes, Porsche customer and about the Tesla customer service experience. I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....

When I buy a $150k Mercedes or BMW, then I get extremely good treatment. I get a luxury car as a loaner, they even drive me home, and so on. The car will be fixed the fastest time possible and even hardcore problems don't take longer than a week to get fixed. Their parts system is superb, their logistics work and I have my car back in no time. In the meantime I have an equally good car from the same manufacturer at my disposal. Every single time.
The service is very good with a car in the 50's k price range, and superb in the 150k range. It's like getting a room in a grand hotel. You are getting VIP treatment if you spend the money for the top suite.

Not to with Tesla. Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
As an example, I still need to pay $100 for Tesla to tow my 150k Tesla to service. And I don't get a comparable luxury Tesla, no, some freaking Enterprise rental car, even though I bought a $150,000 ultra luxury car. And it truly is, because the interior of the 150k Models is, except the seats no different than the 70k Models S. Which is ridiculous imho...

Not only do I get premium service with the Euro Car Companies, but I also get amazing lifestyle offers. As an example, I own a BMW I8, with the I8 came a special club membership that offers amazing events every month. From guest access Coachella and racing at the nearby racetrack to America's cup VIP access to Art Basel Miami access. It's awesome. But that's a whole different story...

To make the long story short, I'm ok to drive a 150k car that has the interior of a 40k car and maybe not exactly the service standard of other manufacturers, as long as I have the current AP in it ( I go skiing every weekend and just want to be a passive driver on the 4 hour *sugar* show back home ).
Owners of P90D who have had other luxury cars before, how satisfied are you with the Tesla ownership when it comes to repair, maintenance,.,. Is it as bad as I think it is, do you have regrets or are you happy, maybe happier than with your former BMW, Mercedes, whatever. Thanks ;O)
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Tesla cars are for tech enthusiasts and early adopters.
You have to decide if you want a high tech, ultra fast Tesla, or a comfortable, predictable, luxurious car from an established prestige brand.
A nice problem to have!
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Seashepherd said: ?

IMHO this tweet by the CEO was completely unprofessional.
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Sorry to say, you'll have to get used to this. Look at it this way. He has so much passion and so many ideas, they overflow and take control of him sometimes. He is also an idealist and doesn't necessarily consider the optics of what he's saying. That can be both good and bad.

I'm not interested in the car at all if Autopilot will be limited in the update.
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We will find out on Sunday, but I've read that if you ignore certain Autopilot warnings to put your hands on the wheel, the new OS will disable your ability to use AP until you pull over and put the car into PARK. If true, that's kind of the ultimate nag feature.

Is it a bunch of millennials playing Pokemon all day?
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Minecraft.

Certainly not the head PR guy, because he left yesterday...
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Yes, I believe Ricardo Reyes has come and gone as many times as Elon Musk has broken up with Talulah Riley. I've worked in startups, when multiple high-level marcom people leave a company, it's typically an indication of problems higher up. Gee I wonder who that could be...

How about a courtesy update?
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You mean like a courtesy loaner? You get the Enterprise Rent-a-Car version of a courtesy update! No update for you! lol

I have read many scary reports of customers whose Teslas are in repair for weeks and weeks, and they get handed some shitty rental car and are told to wait....
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Don't confuse vehicle repairs with body shop repairs. When your car is in an accident, your insurance company will handle the rental car and it's at their discretion. But as far as shop repairs go, I've always received another Model S loaner every single time without exception.

Tesla treats everyone the same, they told me. Sounds great, but this means that p100D owners don't get superior but only mediocre service, otherwise it's not sustainable.
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You had me until this ^^^. You think, as a P100D owner who spent $150,000, you should receive some superior "Captain's Lounge" treatment versus those of us who spent a lowly $85,000? If that's what you are saying, then by all means cancel your Tesla and buy a BMW. With Tesla are paying for features - all of them mostly a-la-carte - you aren't paying for "luxury" or to be placed on a pedestal above other Tesla owners.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

Don't confuse vehicle repairs with body shop repairs. When your car is in an accident, your insurance company will handle the rental car and it's at their discretion. But as far as shop repairs go, I've always received another Model S loaner every single time without exception.
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Lucky you, I got a Buick.
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S4WRXTTCS said: ?

You're getting the best lane-steering/tacc system money can buy.
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Seashepherd said: ?

Yes Alketi,I'm afraid Tesla will dial back the Ap. They gave me a p90d for a weekend to test. I drove it up to Vail, and it was a game changer because of the AP. On the way up I drove fast, in AP, but hand right at steering wheel. On the way back, in crawling heavy traffic it was absolutely fantastic to let go off the steering wheel and to relax...
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The question you should be asking is how big will the upcoming improvements be?

And will you miss out on any major improvements by buying or leasing now? In other words if you wait a few weeks or months would you be able to get a car that supports later generation hardware? If so how long will that be? If it's not available for 18-24 months it's not a big deal.

Note:
Tesla might not provide any of the above information in advance.
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@Boatguy So, your not talking about a Buick like this then?

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I would take that as a loaner.
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Buying products from a highly innovative company means you will always miss upgrades. Step in, enjoy and replace every 2 or 3 years if it's that important to you.
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I love the service, mostly because I do not have to waste my time taking for oil changes every 3 months, I like the culture of the company, and the only time I needed a service (for 12 V bat), I got a Tesla Model S no problem. Everyone at the SC was just superb. BMW etc. dealerships, actually being dealerships, creep me out and I always take a detour not to get too close.
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Seashepherd said: ?

Thanks for the input.
I'm referring to the price tag when I say Luxury. The 100 is certainly in the elite, luxury, 1% whatever you want to call it, class with its price tag. And why would this car not be right for me if I ask about the experiences of other owners?
Let me tell you about my experience today. Tesla offered me an S for this weekend to drive since it's the last weekend before the lease offer ends. No one followed up. I just tried to call the Denver sales center and their phone number wasn't working. So I called the service center and they gave me the same, non working phone number. Then I called Tesla Palo Alto. First phone number didn't work either, second finally worked. Yes, it's true,we are experiencing phone problems they said. So what about my Tesla test drive for this weekend, I planned for it, and haven't heard back, I asked. Sorry, can't help you she answered...
No judging here, just telling you about my experience. Again, this is something I have never experienced with the other Marques. I really like this car, I think the AP is amazing, that's why I'm willing to pay that much for not much else than AP (and power), but I'm afraid that I will have many service related headaches on the way. What if my car is in service for 4 weeks, will they still charge me my monthly $2000+ payment?
Your input, except the one of a couple trolls like Warped, are very valuable and I very much appreciate you guys taking your time!
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Communication has always been an issue at Tesla and will likely continue to be as long as Elon Musk is the CEO. He apparently doesn't hold his people accountable for anything, as witnessed by his sleeping on the Model X production line to ensure quality. A good CEO doesn't have to do that if he has hired the right people and enforced the proper protocols and made his expectations clear, expectations that would result in termination or other penalty if not achieved in most other organizations.

You have to look at Model S this way: It's a $50,000 car strapped to a $40,000 battery. A Falcon 9 rocket costs many millions of dollars, but that doesn't make it a luxury product. Tesla uses the word "premium" to describe its cars, and service definitely fits that description as well. But luxury? Not so much.
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Camera-Cruiser said: ?

@Boatguy So, your not talking about a Buick like this then?

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Ha ha! No, not a Buick like that! More like this.

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Just a small tip.
Don't get the highest model, it will depreciate fast.
and, be advised that Tesla will make a change in every 3-6 months.
They just do it as the tech is ready, they don't wait. They released 90d, then people thought, oh this is a great time to buy. They restarted referral program. Then, they released facelift models. People started to order, and then they released p100d. It is obvious that something else will come in 3-6 months. They do this because Tesla is a public company, they try to keep the stocks hot. Their delivery numbers should be good. They don't have luxury to have official release cycles and announce low delivery numbers in some quarters. They keep changing it so that people would think it is a good time to buy.
They also release "news" , like very week, to keep stocks warm.
and you may want to drive carefully or you may have to wait months to get back your car Excessive wait for replacement parts (and, Where is the radar located in the refreshed Model S?)

This is just my opinion that I come up with after following Tesla and Elon for the last 4 years.
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Off course Tesla is innovating quickly but not to keep the stock hot or news or any other games. The speed of innovation is high and it is much safer to implement a small set of changes in production any time they are ready rather than waiting for a model cycle and release lots of them in one chunk. With 400k orders Tesla doesn't need to focus on stirring the news. It simply needs to improve on a very good car and scale up production with out any errors. That is best done by releasing upgrades as they become available.

So do we want Tesla to innovate slower? No really. Do we want them to bundle all changes once a year? Not really because just the testing of the much larger set of cross dependencies increases the change mgt complexity massively and introduces risk that is best mitigated by incremental change?

Any new car will depreciate fast. Is this tesla special? Not really. I could be upset that our P85DL is no longer the fastest beast on the road? The truth is even our older P85+ is still great fun to drive. Tesla has been pretty good allowing owners of a prev generation to upgrade one level of innovation.
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xborg said: ?

They just do it as the tech is ready, they don't wait. They released 90d, then people thought, oh this is a great time to buy. They restarted referral program. Then, they released facelift models. People started to order, and then they released p100d. It is obvious that something else will come in 3-6 months. They do this because Tesla is a public company, they try to keep the stocks hot. Their delivery numbers should be good. They don't have luxury to have official release cycles and announce low delivery numbers in some quarters. They keep changing it so that people would think it is a good time to buy.
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You're not willing to allow the possibility that they genuinely want to innovate as fast as possible?
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Soo, the big news about AP are finally here ( not sure why it took him so long, other than 2 year lease option run out tomorrow ), and no one has a clue about the question I raised as my main concern.

"There also a large number of important improvements. Something I think will be quite significant is that if the user ignores repeated warning to keep their hands on the wheel, if it ignores the audible alarm more than 3 times in an hour then the driver will have to park and restart in order to enable Autosteer.

One of the ironies that we�ve seen is counter intuitive and a lot of people on the consumer watchdog sites and in some cases on regulatory sites have assumed that Autopilot accidents are more likely for new users. In fact, it is the opposite. Autopilot accidents are far more likely for expert users. It is not the neophytes. It�s the experts.

They get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car�s warnings. It�s like a reflex. The car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, and it becomes an unconscious reflex action. So we will see half a dozen or more, sometimes as many as 10 warning in one hour continuously ignored by the driver. We really want to avoid that situation."

So, if a driver IGNORES the audible alarm three times per hour, then it's game over. Contrary he then writes that 'the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel', the car...bla bla." Wait, so tug is a hard, sudden pull. That's why we were supposed to do, right? Not a hard pull, but a bit of a pull to show that the driver is alert.

But tugging after an audible alert means the opposite of IGNORING the audible alert. If the driver doesn't do any action, then he ignores the audible alert. So what is the driver supposed to do to not ignore the audible alert? Hold the steering wheel and lick it??

Assuming Elon meant ignoring the visual, not audible alert:
Do I now have to look at the dashboard all the time? How is that safe? That may would work with a heads up display, but obviously Tesla doesn't have a heads up display, a technology that is must have in any cutting edge vehicle (or helmet). Only other option is to keep my hands on the steering wheel all the time. **** that (pardon my French).

I also think that he realized that AP based on cameras is not working , and they had to put the breaks on and move to radar, like every other manufacturer. I think there's a high chance that the AP, now based on radar, is going to be similar to Mercedes Drive Pilot (which is btw, very good, I just tested it yesterday and was very surprised. breaking much better than Tesla)

This thread is not about AP, but the limiting of AP at 8.0 was one of my concerns. I have until tomorrow to decide and I don't have a ****ing clue what "Elon" meant, and so does no one else on this board.

Does anyone know if I have a certain trial time where I can cancel the two year lease?
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Unless the 2 year is different from the 3 year you don't have a cancellation clause - other than the usual provisions by which you can break the lease and pay out the difference.

I'm 95% sure, having read it a few times, that Elon means that AP will expect you to actually keep your hand on the wheel - rather than to stay hands off and tug on it when it gets confused. This is clearly in response to a few accidents where Tesla noted that the driver ignored the AP pleas to keep their hands on the wheel.

In practice, this means keep one hand lightly on the wheel. I'm honestly not thrilled by this, but I can understand the company's reaction given the public/media blustering that's gone on over the last few months. This is the price we must collectively pay for not being adults and not being willing to take responsibility for our own actions.

Sigh. We complain about the nanny state, but when somebody decides to treat us like adults, we punish them for it.
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I'm not sure what that means either. I know if it is too nagging, there will be an owner backlash and it will get sorted out in some manner.

But a lot of this seems like "over thinking" it to me. Sometimes, it's better to just buy your ticket and take the ride.
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Drucifer said: ?

I'm not sure what that means either. I know if it is too nagging, there will be an owner backlash and it will get sorted out in some manner.

But a lot of this seems like "over thinking" it to me. Sometimes, it's better to just buy your ticket and take the ride.
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I agree with that. What happens, happens. It will work itself out.
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RogerHScott said: ?

You're not willing to allow the possibility that they genuinely want to innovate as fast as possible?
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Nothing is stopping them to innovate. It is a very good think. But, releasing those innovation gradually, every 3 months is not good for customers. Most of the big manufacturers are transparent about release dates and upcoming new features/innovations. But Tesla is always trying to keep it as secret. They are doing that because they don't have to luxury to slow down the production line. On the other hand, Mercedes can announce new E series 6 months before, and the demand for E series can go down gradually. They don't care because they can shift E series production line to C series, which is released 6 months before E series and has good demand. If you check big manufacturers, they don't update every model at the same time, so they can keep production line 100% efficiency at all times. But Tesla cannot afford announcing a big upgrade and slowing down the production line until that upgrade is live. By releasing new features or changes, or initiating referral programs, they are trying to keep sales live. When they will have S X 3 Y models at the same time, I believe that they will go same route as other manufacturers.
PS: These are just my opinion.
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xborg said: ?

releasing those innovation gradually, every 3 months is not good for customers
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You've got a large sample of Tesla customers right here. I encourage you to post a poll asking if people feel Tesla should slow the
pace at which they release changes. People could also respond to that thread explaining the ways in which these rapid innovations
are "not good for" them.
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Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.
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RogerHScott said: ?

You've got a large sample of Tesla customers right here. I encourage you to post a poll asking if people feel Tesla should slow the
pace at which they release changes. People could also respond to that thread explaining the ways in which these rapid innovations
are "not good for" them.
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Great idea! I'll post a pool soon.
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ShotgunF15E said: ?

I hear it varies somewhat service center to service center. Sadly, it doesn't appear they all give 5 star service. I have been very happy with my experience. I had a minor issue with my car late on a Sunday night. They DROVE to MY house with a Tesla loaner and showed up at almost midnight. Took my car, left the loaner, fixed it over night, and swapped it back with me at 7am so I wouldn't be late for work Monday morning. It was all done in less than 8 hours from initial call. This was a few months ago, earlier this year. Do other car companies fix cars in the middle of the night on the weekend? I've always had a Tesla loaner and they seem to know me by name at the service center. I've never bought another $100k + car, but then again, I've never had this good of service with anyone else. I'm sure there are things others do that Tesla doesn't and that may rub some folks the wrong way; however, I've yet to enjoy driving another car as much as I love this Tesla. It's not perfect, and it's lacking in some areas, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else at this point...
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Dang, that IS amazing service. I'm about to find out today how anxious my SC wants to take care of 2 issues on a car delivered on Friday 9/9. So far the communication has been good, but the execution for the actual fixes is what I'm waiting to see... I heard the mention of maybe a week or 2 depending on parts, etc., etc. That concerns me. If I need a loaner and I get an ICE, that will pretty much tell me it's going to a rough 24 months when lease is up.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.
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I couldn't agree more. People are upset because Tesla is no longer going to facilitate people driving without their hands on the wheel? Really? Since when is driving down the road without hands on been a good idea? There are semi-regular posts on this forum where a Tesla was driving down the road on AP and the car did something ill-advised. That alone is enough for me to keep my hands on.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.
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Incorrect. Mercedes Drive Pilot does not require the driver to have his hands on the steering wheel all the time. Same with Elon Musk, before AP 8.0 he clearly stated that one does not have to have his hands on the steering wheel all the times. Keeping your hands on the steering wheel when the car is in AP is not basic. Keeping your hands very close to the steering wheel is basic, but keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?
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Seashepherd said: ?

keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?
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Well, no. Having your hands (in some way or other) on the wheel is not the same as steering. Just as having your foot in the vicinity
of the brake and accelerator is not the same as doing what TACC does for you.
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@Seashepherd interesting that your initial post got 10 dislikes and 4 likes followed by 49% of replies saying "Your observations and concerns are valid", 49% saying "I have had fantastic service / a fully-loaded loaner" and 1% "stick with a Luxury brand". I have no idea what the 10x Dislikers beef was about ...

I have come at this from a different viewpoint. I consider myself privileged, sounds like you are too. I have decided to do what I can about the rape of the planet's non-renewable resources. So my message to you is "You should not be driving an ICE - period" ...

... You will have figured already that I no longer get many dinner invitations! I chastise my rich ba$tard friends for doing the school run in their Range Rovers. I understand they need one to drive across a ploughed field on their estate, but they can certainly afford an additional vehicle that is more appropriate and eco-friendly for the school run. They need to do more to reduce their house-fuel usage, install PV on their rooves, recycle more ... I drone on and ON at them !!

I could afford a supercar, indeed I would love to have one (would have LOVED to have one ...) but I could never reconcile with myself having a high-days and holy-days vehicle with two seats that was utterly useless in all other respects. The P100DL you are considering is only bettered, performance-wise, by two other Supercars both costing almost 10x as much. Yet it will seat 5 adults comfortably and carry a mountain of their luggage. (You and I know that Tesla weights a lot anyway, but don't forget to tell your passengers "Of course acceleration is hampered by us being 5-up" - just before you launch!)

You are right about fit and finish, and Luxury / Premium. Tesla is a young company, they have sourced the best experts in the field, and that may include Interior Finish, but they aren't there yet. Its not a bother for me, we gave up all that sort of stuff a decade ago when we starting turning Green, so I've come to Tesla from a family-fleet of [small, non-luxury] vehicles from the Lying & Cheating VW group.

You are right to be worried about service. The growing pains of their growth are definitely an issue, and I don't know if they will solve them well and in a timely fashion. Going from 40,000 cars a year to 400,000 a year, in the space of a year, also requires increasing the service personnel, and locations / size of facilities by a factor of 10. Its a big ask and I expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I've been happy with service (compared to every car dealer experience I've ever had), I have some niggles about the car that Tesla are happy to sort out but I haven't bothered to find the time for as yet (my choice). I like the fact that doing 25,000-30,000 miles a year I will only have to bother with a single service (and, indeed, no service until Year 2 would actually be enough, to change Brake fluid).

But above all I intend not to be amongst the ranks of my peers when their grandchildren say to them "Grandpa, you knew there was a problem, but you did nothing about it". Perhaps, on my crusade, I could persuade you too?

By your own definition you are an edge case, I would suggest you keep your current daily driver until you are happy beyond doubt with the Tesla; does the Happiness Guarantee, that lets you walk away from the Lease, still exist?

P.S. Try not to bend it. There are way too many horror stories about the delays for Parts for repairs being measure in MONTHS, let along Weeks and Days ...
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.
Click to expand...

Yes... and most people do not read the entire owner's manual for their vacuum cleaner, nor do they lubricate the wheels every 6 months or whatever ... yada yada. I contend that Tesla fully knew and expected that people were going drive hands-off with a system that, in the right circumstances, is fully capable of it.... with supervision. They're not idiots and they understand human nature very well. Yes they did what what was legally required, via on-screen warnings and the manual, to be able to later claim "geeze, we didn't expect people to do that." Fair enough. I know that if I drive hands off, I have to do so carefully and it's my own issue if I screw up. it's no different than cruise control.

So... some idiots chose to blame the company after they did something really stupid. And so Tesla is being forced to do exactly what they didn't want to do. I'm waiting for the day when axe makers will have to ask for a signature on a 45 page contract before they can sell you an axe. "I had no idea, judge and jury, that I could slice my leg open if I missed the log my down swing! I need $25 million from the axe-maker to console me."
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Seashepherd said: ?

keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?
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I have always driven with my hands on the wheel (when using AP) and I can honestly say that my journeys on AP are less tiring than manual driving. I read many posts claiming that but I did not believe them until I proved it to myself. My opinion was "I've been driving for years, I love driving, its effortless cruising along the highway" but that has changed, and I now arrive fresher and safer. I am sure you will also find, even with hands/hand on the wheel, that you will arrive more refreshed & alert than previously. Fully Autonomous will be something better still ...

I've read of some scary AP near-misses; I expect they represent 1% of drivers, and much less than 1% of their time on AP - its a very small risk - but its my life at stake.

The argument I see voiced here is "At 60 MPH I will travel 68 feet per second. If I react [e.g. move my hands from my lap back onto the wheel] in 1/10th second that's only 7 feet". To me that might make the difference between a Catch and a Drop.

Elon's point is very well made, IME. I do think, from time to time, that it would be safe to "just do that" whilst on AP, where "that" would be e.g. selecting something complex on the screen - lots of vertical and sideways scrolling through Spotify to get to something interesting. Complacency creeps in ... its dangerous ... be careful.
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The service I receive from Tesla is better than any other make I've owned, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, McLaren, etc. My Model S P90DL is 10 months old with 12k miles and it's never been in for anything, zero problems. My X has been in quite a bit though, If I have an issue, Tesla comes to my house with a Tesla loaner and takes my car in.

I wouldn't worry about a new P100D, you'll love the car and won't look back, go for it.
�

This is why you should get a P100D -

xkcd: Earth Temperature Timeline
�

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.
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WannabeOwner said: ?

@Seashepherd interesting that your initial post got 10 dislikes and 4 likes followed by 49% of replies saying "Your observations and concerns are valid", 49% saying "I have had fantastic service / a fully-loaded loaner" and 1% "stick with a Luxury brand". I have no idea what the 10x Dislikers beef was about ...

I have come at this from a different viewpoint. I consider myself privileged, sounds like you are too. I have decided to do what I can about the rape of the planet's non-renewable resources. So my message to you is "You should not be driving an ICE - period" ...

... You will have figured already that I no longer get many dinner invitations! I chastise my rich ba$tard friends for doing the school run in their Range Rovers. I understand they need one to drive across a ploughed field on their estate, but they can certainly afford an additional vehicle that is more appropriate and eco-friendly for the school run. They need to do more to reduce their house-fuel usage, install PV on their rooves, recycle more ... I drone on and ON at them !!

I could afford a supercar, indeed I would love to have one (would have LOVED to have one ...) but I could never reconcile with myself having a high-days and holy-days vehicle with two seats that was utterly useless in all other respects. The P100DL you are considering is only bettered, performance-wise, by two other Supercars both costing almost 10x as much. Yet it will seat 5 adults comfortably and carry a mountain of their luggage. (You and I know that Tesla weights a lot anyway, but don't forget to tell your passengers "Of course acceleration is hampered by us being 5-up" - just before you launch!)

You are right about fit and finish, and Luxury / Premium. Tesla is a young company, they have sourced the best experts in the field, and that may include Interior Finish, but they aren't there yet. Its not a bother for me, we gave up all that sort of stuff a decade ago when we starting turning Green, so I've come to Tesla from a family-fleet of vehicles from the Lying & Cheating VW group.

You are right to be worried about service. The growing pains of their growth are definitely an issue, and I don't know if they will solve them well and in a timely fashion. Going from 40,000 cars a year to 400,000 a year, in the space of a year, also requires increasing the service personnel, and locations / size of facilities by a factor of 10. Its a big ask and I expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I've been happy with service (compared to every car dealer experience I've ever had), I have some niggles about the car that Tesla are happy to sort out but I haven't bothered to find the time for as yet (my choice). I like the fact that doing 25,000-30,000 miles a year I will only have to bother with a single service (and, indeed, no service until Year 2 would actually be enough, to change Brake fluid).

But above all I intend not to be amongst the ranks of my peers when their grandchildren say to them "Grandpa, you knew there was a problem, but you did nothing about it". Perhaps, on my crusade, I could persuade you too?

By your own definition you are an edge case, I would suggest you keep your current daily driver until you are happy beyond doubt with the Tesla; does the Happiness Guarantee, that lets you walk away from the Lease, still exist?
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mkjayakumar said: ?

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.
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mkjayakumar said: ?

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.
Click to expand...

mkjayakumar said: ?

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.
Click to expand...

Transcript:
"There also a large number of important improvements. Something I think will be quite significant is that if the user ignores repeated warning to keep their hands on the wheel, if it ignores the audible alarm more than 3 times in an hour then the driver will have to park and restart in order to enable Autosteer.

One of the ironies that we�ve seen is counter intuitive and a lot of people on the consumer watchdog sites and in some cases on regulatory sites have assumed that Autopilot accidents are more likely for new users. In fact, it is the opposite. Autopilot accidents are far more likely for expert users. It is not the neophytes. It�s the experts.

They get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car�s warnings. It�s like a reflex. The car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, and it becomes an unconscious reflex action. So we will see half a dozen or more, sometimes as many as 10 warning in one hour continuously ignored by the driver. We really want to avoid that situation."

Read the last paragraph? For me that means having your hands on the steering wheel rather than tugging...
Have you tested the Drive Pilot system personally?
�

Seashepherd said: ?

Incorrect. Mercedes Drive Pilot does not require the driver to have his hands on the steering wheel all the time. Same with Elon Musk, before AP 8.0 he clearly stated that one does not have to have his hands on the steering wheel all the times. Keeping your hands on the steering wheel when the car is in AP is not basic. Keeping your hands very close to the steering wheel is basic, but keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?
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Tesla clearly states, in writing in the owners' manual and elsewhere, that drivers are to keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot. I'm simply saying that if that is a requirement, then there should be no surprise that Tesla is establishing a stricter enforcement policy in light of how people are actually using the feature.

Nobody here can make this decision for you. Perhaps the solution might be to test drive a vehicle once 8.0 rolls out, to see if you like how Tesla has implemented some of the new controls.
�

Seashepherd said: ?

Transcript:
Read the last paragraph? For me that means having your hands on the steering wheel rather than tugging...
Have you tested the Drive Pilot system personally?
Click to expand...

TheDrive did a head-to-head review of both systems. The results are fairly enlightening.

The War For Autonomous Driving: 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class VS. 2017 Tesla Model S
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Năm, 2 tháng 2, 2017

Not so sure anymore if I should get the P100D when I read all these threads... part 1

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