Feb 16, 2014
Cattledog As pointed out by Remnant on teslamotors.com's Model X thread, the pictures of the Model X on Tesla's Model X page no longer show mirrors. Neither do they show up on our personal Tesla page where it shows our Model X reservation - awesome! My guess is it may be a $ extra when configuring.
Model X | Tesla Motors�
Feb 16, 2014
Zythryn Regulations in the United States have required mirrors in the past.
I will be pleasantly shocked if this changed.
I suspect that this is simply a graphical glitch showing an earlier concept.�
Feb 16, 2014
Discoducky If intentionally removed and TM is confident to ship with cameras I'm very happy.�
Feb 16, 2014
pbleic This would be somewhat problematic in rain and snow as well.�
Feb 16, 2014
GSP I think NHTSA may be reconsidering rear view mirror regulations. Removing them would be very helpful to meeting their 54 mpg CAFE regulations. Without a way to meet 54 mpg, the regs could get relaxed during the mid-term review. Advanced tech to insure durability and provide acceptable fail modes for cameras could complete the perfect storm to remove the mirror requirement.
GSP�
Feb 16, 2014
Cattledog I guess it could be a website glitch, maybe a timestamp error. But it's also been done on the image that appears on our 'My Dashboard' page that shows our Model X reservation and it's a different Model X image - color, angle, etc.�
Feb 16, 2014
bonnie Woot! Made my morning. Thanks.
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Feb 16, 2014
Mayhemm Man, I feel pretty unobservant to have missed that...�
Feb 16, 2014
ecarfan I will be surprised if the multiple images and animations of the X on that web page are missing the side mirrors because of a "graphical glitch". Looks intentional to me. Note that in place of traditional side view mirrors there are tiny stalks, just a few inches long. Obviously where little video cameras are mounted.
Very cool. The car looks so much better without bulky side mirrors. I understand that US DOT rules currently require side mirrors. But maybe the times really are a changing.�
Feb 16, 2014
jrreno If you look closely you will see a small pod sticking out from the side just large enough for a camera.�
Feb 16, 2014
Cattledog I bet Tesla really didn't want to offer power folding mirrors on the Model S but caved to demand. The wiring they'd prefer is not to little electric motors but to little cameras!
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Feb 16, 2014
MarkR It will be awesome when we learn for certain that rear view mirrors are no longer required . . . and also great if there is a retrofit for the rear-view cameras for the Model S.�
Feb 16, 2014
Jeeps17 ^^^^ This ^^^^
Considering that my rear view camera becomes useless within minutes of driving in snow (or rain), if Tesla want to use cameras instead of side mirrors they will absolutely have to provide some means of keeping the lens clean.
It would be great if they can pull it off in non-californian climes.�
Feb 16, 2014
Ocelot Agree completely. Just drove through Alberta and back up cam was useless the whole time as simply very dirty from...slushy snowy muddy mess.�
Feb 16, 2014
Zythryn The placement of the rear camera lens is probably the worst spot possible, beside right behind the tire facing forward.
I would not be surprised if a camera placed higher, and by the side of the car will be much easier to keep clean.
All that said, I still believe it is an error and the side mirrors will return by Tuesday.�
Feb 16, 2014
Bearman This problem has already been solved elsewhere, when glass gets too busy with water/dirt only a high speed rotating clear glass/lens works, and it works great.They just need to make one for rear view cameras where turbulence is an issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen�
Feb 16, 2014
NigelM The mirrors are still there, I can see the shadows! I'm guessing they are just really well camouflaged for aesthetic reasons..... ;-)�
Feb 16, 2014
dsm363 Looks a little odd at first without the mirrors but a good step I think. Would love the have blindspot cameras on the Model S too.�
Feb 16, 2014
EcoBruin Not sure if anyone has noticed this... Honda has cameras in place along with the side mirrors. Not sure if this is a sign of things to come, but I am excited at the possibility of complete removal of side mirrors.
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Feb 16, 2014
NigelM Cameras in conjunction with side mirrors have been around for some time, ask any RV owner. I've never seen one with only cameras though.�
Feb 16, 2014
aronth5 :smile:Great job of camouflaging since the camera shows from the rear angle too
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Feb 16, 2014
7racer I remember when people were over thinking the pano roof on the S and saying how it would be too hot.
I think the side mirrors will do fine in bad conditions. Like previously mentioned, the back of the car gets the brunt of the debris while driving.�
Feb 16, 2014
tenstringer009 I'm not sure if you're just referring to RVs or vehicles in general, but I was in Hamburg yesterday and came across a VW XL1 in the wild. As you can see, it's definitely only using cameras in place of mirrors. However, as far as I know, there are no plans to bring the XL1 to the states (and perhaps the EU has looser restrictions on these types of things).
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Feb 16, 2014
markb1 I'm quite possibly misremembering, but did the web site ever show mirrors? I know the X was originally introduced without mirrors, but later prototypes did have mirrors. But when did they change the web site to add mirrors? Does anyone have a screen shot from before?�
Feb 16, 2014
dsm363 I'm almost certain it did until this new change.�
Feb 16, 2014
MikeL IIRC, mirrors weren't originally on the computer rendered images on the website, then they appeared on some, but not all of the shots, then they were gone again. But that last disappearance was months(?) ago.�
Feb 16, 2014
markb1 All of snapshots that I've looked on on the Wayback Machine show it without mirrors, although the pages are badly mangled. For example (from November):
Model X | Tesla Motors�
Feb 16, 2014
dsm363 Not sure now. Anyway, the prototype I saw in LA looked like this
2015 Tesla Model X Will Have All-Wheel Drive Only, Company Confirms�
Feb 16, 2014
DaveT I remember surfing the Model X page about a month ago and distinctly remembering it had side mirrors.
I don't think them changing all the pics to cameras is a glitch.�
Feb 16, 2014
markb1 Yeah, I agree, they definitely added mirrors to the prototype at some point. I just don't remember the website ever reflecting that.�
Feb 16, 2014
Zythryn We placed our reservation about a month ago. We went over it with a fine toothed comb and it definitely had mirrors.
You can actually still see them if you click on the button to reserve a Model X.�
Feb 16, 2014
AnOutsider Debbie downer: I kinda miss the mirrors. They looked fine and I'm honestly a little worried about how well camera only will work in person. Time will tell I guess.�
Feb 16, 2014
bonnie We'll get you the retro version with mirrors, big guy. I'm going for the Hello Kitty version with cameras.�
Feb 16, 2014
Nubo Hmm... any other subtle differences that might identify this as a newer version of the design, compared to previous sans-mirror images?�
Feb 16, 2014
MikeL Just because I went to the trouble of asking, here's what I was told recently at two different Tesla stores:
store #1 in November, "Side view cameras will be on the Model X"
store #2 in January, "Side view cameras will NOT be on the Model X"
I hope we get them. My cars are so primitive, I want to take the biggest possible leap forward with this one! ML�
Feb 16, 2014
spleen Very excited if this comes to fruition!�
Feb 16, 2014
markwj I'm wondering why, if they are going to the replace mirrors with cameras, they are leaving them in the same place. That may be optimal for mirrors, but why so for cameras (which have different optics and fields of view). Sure, if they stick out, you get a couple of extra degrees of view into the rear behind the car, but with a decent rear view mirror and/or camera that doesn't seem much help.
I would have thought moving them forward would be better for blind spot detection. Also, coupled with front and rear cameras, that could generate a near 360 degree field of view for parking.�
Feb 17, 2014
miimura The image captured by the camera needs to have the same perspective as the traditional mirror. If it doesn't, it will be confusing to the driver and inherently unsafe. Around-View cameras and Blind-Spot Monitoring systems can use cameras mounted in different locations because they are not directly replacing the function of the mirror.�
Feb 17, 2014
markwj Ok, but the perspective of mirrors varies dramatically depending on things like type of mirror, angle, tilt, how far forward the driver's seat is, etc. A camera is going to be different than a mirror (no matter where it is placed).�
Feb 17, 2014
Cattledog Well, advancing the design without knowing whether you have a mirror or camera is probably easiest if you remove the location variable and accept that they'll be in the same spot. That location also is natural for drivers when understanding the width of their car and is also where the car has typically already curved back in some - you wouldn't want to mount these where they stick out more and might get whacked off. And finally, like winglets on jets, they probably are actually beneficial in breaking up vortices coming off the intersection of the hood, windshield, and quarter panel (just guessing here).�
Feb 17, 2014
vfx As a camera guy I totally agree there are better places to put the lenses for optimal viewing and 360 degree capture as Mark says. Though being able to reach out and clean off the lenses in the old locations does have some benefit.�
Feb 17, 2014
Newscutter With apologies to JakeP who might be rereading this, my general thoughts:
I have to figure the camera would be non-user configurable. They'd fit a super wide angle lens (not unlike a dash cam) and it would deliver the image to either side of the main speedometer display (as the graphic on the MX page now indicates-- which I think is also new). However, where would you put the other info currently displayed there on the MS? Rearview cameras would have to be displayed ALL the time. After all, a poorly adjusted mirror can be compensated for by leaning your head one way or the other to change the view angle, but a badly adjusted camera HAS no such "on the fly" adaptability--- only a fixed wide angle lens eliminates that problem. Arguably looking down is less of a distraction than looking clear across the cabin to the far mirror--- but would take some serious adjustment period. Likewise, a camera with that wide a lens would make "objects may be closer than they appear" a major understatement!! I would expect because of the lens distortion it would seem unlikely to be used WITHOUT a complementary blind spot detection system-- if only because of liability concerns. But more on that idea in a moment-- executive summary:
So if they go all camera-- I predict we get blind spot/collision avoidance system with it, and the camera is a fixed wide angle lens. The question then becomes... where does the information displayed the now, go to?
At this point they've surely engineered and worked out a traditional rearview mirror solution anyway. Like the snazzy 21" wheels on a MS, what better way to differentiate "lesser" MX from a fully loaded one than to have high tech mirrors? I think this is the kind of thing Tesla would bundle with a Tech Pkg, or offer as a standalone upgrade dependent upon it (like parking sensors are), but still offer the traditional mirrors too-- rather than risk scaring away buyers who are uncomfortable with what appears to be yet another complicated solution to a simple problem. The falcon doors are ALREADY a pretty big "oh my... I dunno" type feature--- why risk ANOTHER one?? Especially if the alternative engineering is already done AND if you could easily charge more for the cameras-- which I fully expect are cheaper than actual mirrors anyway (remember my $50 dash cam).
So I predict cameras appear as an optional upgrade and/or bundled with the Tech Pkg which would also come with blindspot/collision avoidance system (a major step toward autonomous vehicles anyway). These would be marketed as breakthrough combinations and further enhance Tesla brand as the safest choice for families by applying state-of-the-art technology (building on the MS's reputation). For the more budget conscious grocery-getters, traditional "analog" mirrors would be offered, along with textile seats and unlit vanity mirrors on the sun visors. <ha>
As for me... I dunno. I'd have to seriously try it first hand before I'd be comfortable with it--- and if it is an additional option, I doubt I'd PAY for the privilege.... as long as power folding mirrors are offered and I could get the Tech Pkg without them.�
Feb 17, 2014
rogbmw In a way, I am kind of concerned regarding the possible rear view cameras. Think of it this way - when driving you can quickly scan to the side view mirror, but your eyes are still up in the field of your driving. I don't know about you guys, but when I have to look down at the screen on my S, my eyes totally come from the view of driving down to the screen, then back. Lets say for discussion that I am thinking about changing lanes left. I look at the mirror plus the field of vision on the left side. Now lets say I am going to do the same left lane change with a camera - with the cameras and subsequent picture on the screen, that means I will have to look right to see the screen. And - the picture will have to be large enough to see anything.
I fully understand the decreased drag a camera will produce, plus the "cool" factor. But as we all know, there are a bunch of yoyo's out there that NEVER look before they change lanes!
Just food for thought and my 2 cents worth!�
Feb 17, 2014
efusco I still think the ideal situation is a side mirror that folds nearly flush with the body so that it is very aerodynamic, but has a camera built into the end of it that would point backward when the physical mirror is folded in. That way if there is a malfunction of the camera or display the driver just activates the mechanical mirror and still has legal functional side mirrors.
This offers the advantage of the aerodynamics and clean styling of the camera, but the convenience and reliability of the more traditional mirror when needed or wanted. Maybe I need to get my patent submitted?�
Feb 17, 2014
Discoducky I'm going to make an assumption that the TM engineers and the NHSTA will produce a working prototype we can provide feedback on, but believe the product will be far more safer as a priority by allowing the driver much more visibility in all conditions and at all times without taking their attention/eyes off of the road.
For instance, lets not make the assumption that the camera is going to be just one camera or multiple cameras collocated or limited to the visible light spectrum.�
Feb 17, 2014
Blip The Norwegian site never had mirrors... Does anybody have an image from the sitt showing X with mirrors? Edit: Here is a link to a post from december 2013 without mirrors: Model X Subsite Updates - Page 6 Also, a simple search on Google for "Model X" - Images shows no (dark gray) Model X with the side view mirrors... Did I miss something?�
Feb 17, 2014
AnOutsider I still see them here: Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors
The page used to show 2 Model S' (sig and non) and 2 Model X's (sig and non), and those had mirrors as well (red and white cars)�
Feb 17, 2014
NigelM I understand your concern and I'll admit to a little trepidation when driving my big RV for the first time. The reality is that I loved the side view cameras within minutes and they also make you a better driver...the cameras are actuated by the indicator stalk so it kinda forces you to indicate when changing lanes (something plenty of Floridians have an issue with!).
Rog, if you're down this way I'll be happy to take you out and show you how the sideview cameras work.�
Feb 17, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney For side view cameras you put the "mirror" inside the door. That way you'd still have the driver look in the general direction.�
Feb 17, 2014
JohnQ Is that the only way to actuate the cameras or is there a setting to leave them on all the time? I'm always glancing in the side views and wouldn't want to have to signal just to take a peek.�
Feb 17, 2014
strider From your comment about looking "right" to see the screen, it sounds like you think the camera would in the 17" screen? Folks are saying the images would be in the speedometer screen so you wouldn't look left or right, just slightly down. In theory you're taking your eyes further away from the road with mirrors (especially the right one for left-hand drivers) than with the images in the speedometer screen.�
Feb 17, 2014
AudubonB What about a heads-up display? Does the technology for that even exist today? It's one thing to display, for example, your speed or yaw/pitch, it must be something far more complex to generate a realistic-looking image of what is to your left-rear and right-rear. But if so, would "around" the A-pillars or "on" the side windows - where a driver normally looks for the location of mirrors, be appropriate?
By the way, I really like the look of that fuggedaboutit-in-the-US VW XL1 shown in a prior post. Its side cameras, by the way, are way down the side of each door.�
Feb 17, 2014
de704 Nothing is set in stone until they "officially" show the beta version. With Model S Beta was even written on the side. So until then every thing else is Alpha. People are just using the wrong terms.
There are two Alpha Model X's. A white one with mirrors & and another (the one used during the Model X reveal) which has been painted two different colors that doesn't have mirrors.�
Feb 18, 2014
NigelM In my RV there's an option to leave the side cameras on (although personally I find that a little distracting when driving); you need that option btw for reversing into campground spots. On various RVs I've seen, this feature is quite common.�
Feb 20, 2014
santana338 I worry about snow blocking the camera for the side mirrors. We just had a 12" dump up here and in the 5 miles from my covered parking at work to home my rear windshield was completely covered (with the cabin preheated and the rear defroster on) and the backup camera was obscured by snow and/or road slush/ice.
The only thing I could use to see what was behind me was the side mirrors. If they go away in the MX then in the snow you could basically be blind to anything that was not visible out the front and side windows.�
Feb 20, 2014
markb1 With the cameras in the same locations as the mirrors, I would think both would suffer about equally. When I wash my car, there's always a lot of grime on the lower half of the back of the car, but little on the side mirrors. Granted, I don't have any experience with driving in snow, but I suspect it would also accumulate mostly in the same location.�
Feb 20, 2014
santana338 I hadn't looked at the picture until now. I didn't know where they had the cameras mounted. Since they are rear facing on a stalk they should be OK against snow. At least on the drivers side a quick roll-down-the-window-and-wipe will clean them off.
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Feb 23, 2014
planemechanic Wouldn't heated cameras fix the snow problem?�
Feb 23, 2014
jerry33 Not 100%, because the water drops distort the image. You need heat and an air blast to remove the drops.�
Feb 23, 2014
AudubonB Following up on Jerry's observation, a simple, appropriately engineered air diversion "sweep" would constantly flow a sheet of air over the lens. Think of this as a miniature version of the side-to-side air deflectors that higher-end station wagons had across their rear windows starting in the....������late 1960s????? (and, with a little bit of aero-engineering, involving just the right amount of sheeting air to do the job; no more than the most minuscule amount of increased coeff.of drag).�
Feb 23, 2014
jerry33 That works when moving. The cameras also have to be clear when almost stopped (during parking for example), so an active component needs to be available even if the passive component will do 95% of the cleaning.�
Feb 23, 2014
AudubonB I agree....I know this is difficult for today's generation but for me, my gloved thumb would work perfectly. For the driver's side, at least!�
Feb 23, 2014
jerry33 Not in December in Vancouver or March in Texas. When the rain is so hard that you can't see three metres in front of you, opening the window isn't an option�
Feb 23, 2014
NigelM Or July/August in Florida. But then side mirrors are the least of your worries.�
Feb 24, 2014
Nubo Couldn't this problem be mitigated by having the lens inside of a sufficient recess? Sure, I can imagine an exception in horizontal rain from the rear while stopped... Then again, I'm sure we've all had situations where existing side-view mirrors were impaired or not at all useful due to weather conditions (ice, fog, rain).
It's an interesting problem but maybe we are over-thinking if we insist on absolute 100% infallibility, when existing tech is certainly not infallible. Imho, side-view mirrors are aids, and a rare temporary loss of view is adequately and appropriately managed by turning one's head and looking. And, I think a camera view could be superior in a number of aspects (adaptive optics, night-vision, contrast enhancements, even predictive AI applied to the image stream...).�
Feb 24, 2014
Lyon Those types of coatings are great but they usually leave a sort of milky residue that makes them inappropriate for use on anything one needs to see through. It would be awesome if they came up with something that was totally clear when applied though. Imagine that on a car windshield!�
Feb 24, 2014
pete8314 I think it's cool...and I tend to trust that Tesla will engineer them so that they're at least as good, and I'm sure much better than mirrors. There's plenty they can do with the airflow to help keep them clear, maybe take some clues from the on-board F1 camera's (mostly forward-facing, and with rotating clear protectors, and never in snow, but still...). Plus I assume they'll be packed with various sensors, maybe even a 'you should probably wipe a wet thumb over the camera please' warning if they do get too dirty - can't do that with a mirror.�
Feb 24, 2014
Discoducky Everyone is thinking about just the visual spectrum. How about an IR camera? This solves several issues not to mention redundancy and improves upon motion tracking abilities.�
Feb 24, 2014
jerry33 The way to make cameras popular with regulators and the public who hasn't ever used them is to make them better than what they are replacing. It's not going to be 100% infallible, but heated cameras with an air blast mechanism is reasonable. Mirrors are already heated and a small air pump isn't going to be all that hard to do. And yes, you always do a head check.�
Feb 24, 2014
tdiggity I took a ride in a new Honda accord that had side view cameras. It was neat - 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring Side View Camera Screen Photo 25
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Feb 24, 2014
aronth5 Call me old fashioned but I never rely on just looking at the mirror. It still amazes me how many people enter the highway without turning their head or change lanes without quickly looking.
That is one reason I'm actually forward to cameras since they should do a better job than mirrors if designed correctly. More than once I've startled someone when I've come up on them in their blind spot and they haven't see me.
And maybe I shouldn't say this but I've also startled them on purpose hoping they will learn to look the next time.�
Feb 24, 2014
Doug_G They spread salt and sand on the roads around here, so the camera gets covered in crap even when it's not getting covered in snow.
The camera at the rear of the car is in a bad place for this - there's a vortex at the back of every car, that sucks road junk onto the back of the car. The side mirrors would not be nearly as badly impacted, although I think they would need some kind of automatic clearing mechanism.�
Feb 24, 2014
Mayhemm Does the SPIT + THUMB method count? :tongue:�
Feb 25, 2014
Discoducky
Case in point http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/25/5445258/this-is-googles-project-tango�
Feb 25, 2014
RDoc Hmm, my arm/thumb isn't long enough to reach the passenger side.
That being said, with the exception of water and ice, both easily cleared by the built in heaters, my side mirrors on both cars very seldom get dirty enough to be a visibility issue. I believe it's because of the aerodynamics of the mirror surround, which I'd think would be much easier to design for smaller cameras. A heater for ice and water would be pretty trivial as well.
The rear camera is a different matter and probably needs some kind of active cleaning system or lens cap, although if it were capped it couldn't be used while moving. Perhaps on the X the rear view camera could be mounted on the top of the rear hatch to get it into a faster moving air stream.�
Feb 28, 2014
Newscutter Just sorting through files and such. Ran across screen capture I did right after placing our MX reservation in September. Didn't remember it at the time, but can confirm that the MX displayed there did NOT have mirrors.
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Feb 28, 2014
GenericSpoon Ask and you shall receive...
This is the camera placement on the white MX prototype, there's a thread on it somewhere.�
Mar 3, 2014
Newscutter Check out this Nissan solution.... and imagine it with a 3 way rocker (maybe on the backside of the wheel where you fingers are?) toggling between left/center/right view cameras. Just a thought:
Check out Nissans clever digital Smart Rearview Mirror - Autoblog
(crossposting on both mirror threads)�
Mar 4, 2014
Chris Naps Not only does it leave a milky residue, it actually only lasts from 2-8 months and it is more around the 2 month period when a vehicle is left in direct sunlight.
The product is extremely expensive (around $500.) It adds up if you continue to apply it every time it wears.
Check out my thread that involves Honda's solution to mirrors and cameras.�
Mar 16, 2014
Wild_Bill I guess I'm old fashioned as well as I too can not trust mirrors alone without turning my head and checking blind spots. What ever the outcome of this mirror mystery though, I'm sure it will be both functional and innovative.
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Mar 17, 2014
Herbys An interesting additional detail: if you look at the interior pics in the MX page, you'll see that on both sides of the speedometer you can see rear view images. So yes, there are no side mirrors, and the side images will be displayed (at least in the current design) on both sides of the speedometer. I presume they will be overridden with other images when additional info is needed. But if this stays this way I will miss some of the dashboard functionality, in particular the secondary navigation view, which is used frequently enough that switching between side views and this view is probably nor practical. Maybe they will widen the dashboard screen to allow for the side mirrors AND the navigation view to be displayed at the same time?�
Mar 17, 2014
houdini Just noticed that myself. There's a lot of cars now coming out with lane departure warnings, blind spot warnings and the like so I guess mirrors are getting to be an outdated concept. Will be weird just looking at the speedo area though for all your mirror information.�
Mar 17, 2014
lloyds Visually speaking, if they do, it will take some getting use to..�
Mar 17, 2014
Discoducky I'm used to it already
And I have no use for the rear view mirror when backing up as the HD camera is superior (even when it is dirty and wet I can still see better). Granted the side view camera's will need extra tech to handle high speed travel.�
Mar 17, 2014
Raffy.Roma When mirrors will go also on Model S?�
Mar 17, 2014
aronth5 I don't see how the images could be overridden with other images "when additional info is needed". If you're going to replace mirrors with camera's then those images need to be available at all times. How many times have you looked at one of the mirrors in a split second to make a critical driving decision? I think Tesla understands this and will find a creative way to do display this. And that doesn't mean it has to be on either side of the speedometer.�
Mar 17, 2014
neroden You must have very clean weather conditions. I have had to use the rear view mirror when the camera became so dirty that I couldn't see a damn thing in it.�
Mar 17, 2014
Mayhemm That interior shot on the X page is clearly concept art. I'm sure the production interior will have some changes.�
Mar 17, 2014
Discoducky No doubt it gets dirty but I have always been able to see more. Specifically wide angles and movement as the mirror is subject to glare.�
Mar 26, 2014
fengshui They updated the site today due to the sell-out of Signature Model X reservations. Interestingly, they chose an image of the Model X for the production-only reservation page that included regular mirrors.�
Mar 26, 2014
MikeL Because everywhere I go, I see things that remind me of this forum: my ride to work last week looked like
I should call the NHTSA to report my mirrors unsafe/not working (or wash the truck)�
Mar 26, 2014
bonnie Quit taking pictures while driving!�
Mar 26, 2014
MikeL You're right, of course. But the TMC did introduce me to the phrase, "pics, or it didn't happen".�
Mar 26, 2014
bonnie Nice try. Very nice try.�
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