Thứ Sáu, 3 tháng 2, 2017

Forgot my key today... part 1

  • Mar 13, 2013
    carrerascott
    I had my key on a hook next to the car in my garage, so took off this morning, took my son to school, went to the bank drive through, heading to the post office... and realized I left the key at home. If I had stopped at the post office and gotten out, I would have been stuck there. I didn't see any "Key not present" warning, which surprised me. Thankfully I realized I forgot my key before I turned the car off anywhere...
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    kinddog
    i would move that hook a lot farther away.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    kendallpb
    Yeeeeeah . . . I'm surprised it doesn't differentiate between a key inside and a key very close by. This makes me curious to test with my other half's SUV, to see if I can start it if he's right outside, and if so, how close he can be and the car not realize he's not inside the car. I guess the hook is very close.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    GasDoc
    I was thinking about removing the battery from my second key fob and hiding the fob and key somewhere inside my car.

    If I ever lost my active fob, had a fob failure or had a situation such as yours, I could unlock my car using the mobile app, retrieve the battery and spare key and all would be well.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    carrerascott
    In any case I was a bit surprised there wasn't a "key not present" message after I pulled out of the garage. Would be a nice addition for a future software update... imagine taking off on a long trip and realizing you don't have the key after driving 200 miles...
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    dave
    I have to imagine Tesla has the ability to remotely "start" the vehicle. They can do everything else. Not sure if they'd ever actually do it for you, or admit they have the ability, but if they can unlock the doors, honk the horn, and look at all of that diagnostic stuff, I am betting they can turn the thing on as well.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    rogbmw
    I find this a little scary - I did not know the S would drive off without the key in the car. Maybe we should suggest that there be some type of proximity that the key should be in, or else the car would shut down. Maybe I should not say this too loud, but what would keep someone from seeing you drive up, stop, get out with the autolock setting on and walking away - jump in your car before the door handles recess, and drive away with your car....food for thought.

    I know it is a pain, but I always turn around and watch to make sure the handles retract when I am walking away, or press the top of the fob to lock the car.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    andrewket
    I've owned several cars with keyless entry/start, and every single one of them would:

    1. Only start if the key was IN the vehicle. Even one inch outside the door frame the car would not start.
    2. If the key moves out of range, an immediate visual and audio warning are given and doesn't stop until the key is back.

    I don't have my MS yet so I can't test how sensitive the car is, but if it will start with the key outside the vehicle that's a major flaw.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    Discoducky
    If that works it would be brilliant, especially on long trips where, if TM can't remotely start the car, you'd be screwed.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    apacheguy
    Can the Model S be driven away if I send the "unlock" command from the iPhone app? That might be a solution if one were to forget the fob. Guess I'll have to try it later.

    Edit: didn't see gasdocs post. Seems like this workaround won't work by itself. Still need a fob.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    carrerascott
    My keys were hanging on a hook about 3 ft away outside the car (to the side) . FYI
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    Stoneymonster
    Yup, that's a bug or design flaw. Should not operate that way or at least should warn once out of range of the key.
    My prius will not drive unless the key is definitively IN the car.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    Eeyago
    I tested this same thing this weekend with my in-laws Toyota Camry. They stood about 10 feet away from the car with the fob in their pocket and I was able to jump in the car and drive off in it. Pretty scary stuff! I'm surprised that the software doesn't poll every minute or so to see if the fob is nearby.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    rlpm
    carrerascott, where was the second key? Might it have accidentally been in the car?
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    carrerascott
    Both on hooks next to each other.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    mknox
    My old Cadillac was incredible at being able to tell if the key was inside or outside. I could literally hold the key against the outside of the car, and it would still auto-lock after the requisite countdown. If I got out of the car when it was running, and left the key somewhere and got back in, the car would say "Electronic Key Not Detected. One Restart Allowed" or something like that. The Tesla seems to be more proximity-based than key inside vs. key outside of car.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    sunkat
  • Mar 13, 2013
    araxara
    I tried to see if I could reproduce this also:
    1. Car was manually unlocked the night before (I have walk away locking turned on) and charger plugged in
    2. Placed fob on a table 3 feet from the car - handles extended automatically
    3. Removed charger cable
    4. Got inside car and was able to turn car on and drive off (without any fob in car)

    There were no warning messages that the key fob was not present.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    FlasherZ
    If I don't have the key inside the car, it complains. I suspect there's a miscalibration or something at play here. Mine can tell whether the key is 1' outside the door versus being inside.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    kendallpb
    I prefer not. I've been at a gas station with my other half, driving his SUV but didn't bring my key, he goes in for something and I have to move the car. It complains when he leaves, but IIRS it still works. I prefer that.

    But it should warn like his does.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    Robert.Boston
    You'll want to change that. The fob and the car will talk to each other constantly, draining your fob battery. Either find a place further away or put the fob in some shielded container -- I think a steel can (lined with fabric) would do the RF shielding sufficiently.
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  • Mar 13, 2013
    mulder1231
    Agree. What if you have the key in your pocket (I always have it in my pocket) and you let some stranger who is interested in the Model S sit in the driver seat (I know some owners/enthausiasts would allow this). They could put the car in drive and take off without you!

    I had always assumed the key would need to be in the car, and the driver in the chair in order to be able to drive away.
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    jerry33
    Perhaps because the fob is only 3' from the car, it never disconnects.
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    jkeyser14
    I would caution you against that for one reason, car insurance companies won't cover a stolen car if there was a spare key inside. I had friends go through this recently and luckily the car company covered it due to a technicality. The key to his significant other's car was in the glove box of his car. Someone broke into his car to steal something he left out, found the key fob, and took the other car for a joy ride.
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    Iz
    The vehicle will not remain locked. Try leaving on fob inside and lock it with the other fob. Come back later and tap on the door handles. They may extend out letting you into the vehicle.
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    GasDoc
    Really? Even if the FOB in the car has no battery? I'm going to go try this...
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    Kaivball
    Doubt it. Without the battery the fob is dead.
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  • Mar 14, 2013
    brianman
    Yes and no. There are emergency positions where the unpowered key will be recognized.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    Al Sherman
    Please let us know how this works. I'm having more and more senior moments lately. If it works I think it's a good solution for me.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    GasDoc
    This works. I removed the battery from my second fob and put battery and key in an envelope. I approached my car with an active fob in my pocket and the doors unlocked, no surprise there.

    I placed the envelope containing the unpowered fob in the backseat and walked away from the car.

    The car locked as usual and I could not open the door without having my active fob with me. Works with the envelope in the glove box as well.

    Interesting note, At first I tried to unlock the car with the unpowered fob but I could not find the "special spot" near the passenger wiper that is supposed to sense the key in the event of a battery failure.

    I'm thinking of putting some sort of locking door in my frunk to close off the "microwave". I could use the holes used by the frunk net holder to mount screws. The lack of locking space in the Model is bothers me. I'd like to have a place to lock up valuables. Might not hold out against a serious prying attempt but it's better than nothing. If I put a combo lock in this compartment, I could lock my unpowered fob in there.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    scriptacus
    You could always throw one of these in there... :)

    http://www.primarysafes.com/Home-Safes/LockState-LS-LC-30J-Dial-Fireproof-Safe.asp?aff=5114

    Of course it weighs 62 pounds, and is removable...
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    Al Sherman
    Thanks. Maybe just cut the odds down some by putting the FOB and the battery in completely different discrete locations.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    GasDoc
    Or no battery at all and have to run to Walgreens to get the car going in a situation.

    Paint the fob and mix it in with a bag full of "Hot Wheels"
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    Al Sherman
    True. Those batteries ARE readily available.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    mknox
    I think that trick still requires some battery power to work. (i.e. a very weak battery that can't transmit very far, but still strong enough if you put it very close to the receiver).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Problem is, what do you do if you lose your primary key? I like to keep the second key in the house where I can get it if I need it, or someone can bring it to me.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    GasDoc
    If I lost primary key I'd unlock the car with the mobile app and be able to get to the secondary fob and battery. Use that until you can order another replacement fob. No need to have someone get the spare from home and deliver it to you.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    ahaer
    It seems like the ideal solution would be to allow you to type in a driver created password on the touch screen that would power up the car without the FOB. To make it extra secure you could use two-factor authentication. First you'd have to call to give an operator your tesla account access code - which would allow them to unlock the car for you and enable fob-less start. You would then have 30 minutes to go in the car and enter the password that you setup for the car.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    GasDoc
  • Mar 15, 2013
    carrerascott
    If the battery is out of the fob that long, won't it "forget" its programming?
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    gsxrex
    I'd imagine that the programming information is stored in a piece of non-volatile memory. So as long as the memory doesn't get corrupted (and it shouldn't, because they are using automotive qualified electronics parts that have higher standards), it doesn't matter whether it's powered or not.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    jerry33
    The programming is in the car, not in the fob. The car is programmed to accept input from particular fobs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The special spot won't work with a totally dead fob. It's just near the transceiver so that a fob with a weak battery will be able to access it. Remove the battery and you can't use the fob at all. If you could, there would be a slot to insert it as there is on the Prius (inside the car).
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    FlasherZ
    I thought the "special spots" were an RFID scanner that could energize the tag inside the FOB (a la passive tag), when its role as an active tag was no longer working. I thought that meant that even if the FOB was completely dead, it would still work.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    andrewket
    This was my understanding as well, and how a few of my previous cars have worked.
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  • Mar 15, 2013
    kendallpb
    It must be as you say, otherwise how does one replace a dead battery without reprogramming it? ;-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Um, or what you say; ignore my previous comment. ;-)
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  • Mar 16, 2013
    jerry33
    That is how my previous cars worked too. I had read that the Model S was different. Anyone know for sure?
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  • Mar 16, 2013
    dsm363
    If you keep your key fob attached the the physical house key, you'll be less likely to forgot it.
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  • Mar 16, 2013
    brianman
    Given the first sentence's reference to battery, I presumed the second sentence was referring to the key's battery rather than the vehicle's battery. But perhaps I was misinterpreting:

    Update: I tried every "lower windshield to partly under frunk lid" position I could reach from the passenger side with a battery-less FOB and couldn't get it to respond to the passenger door handle tap. Bummer.
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  • Mar 17, 2013
    FlasherZ
    Did you try a battery-less FOB in the cupholder to start the car? Perhaps that one works without a battery but you need at least a low-battery FOB to open the doors? I don't know, really.
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  • Mar 17, 2013
    brianman
    I might at some point, but that case is less concerning to me than the "I'm locked outside in bad weather/neighborhood" problem.
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  • Mar 17, 2013
    GasDoc
    Nope. I tried this with a fob with the battery removed and the car did not recognize it. Apparently you need some minima charge.
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  • Mar 17, 2013
    brianman
    ... or the feature is not working properly. I suspect the former (your assertion) though.
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  • Mar 28, 2013
    Al Sherman
    Have we decided if the extra key FOB WITHOUT battery hidden inside the car will work if you lose your key? ie: grabbing the extra FOB and putting a battery in to start the car 'til you can get home to your spare FOB? If so, I'm going to do this. Extra FOB and separate battery hidden in the car. Unlock the car with the app, and then put the battery in the FOB to drive. But, have we decided if this will work as far as the FOB without the battery not causing any issues, or losing programming?
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  • Mar 28, 2013
    GasDoc
    This worked for me. I removed the battery and found out that they fob would not register at the winshield spot or the cupholder.

    I recently went to get paint armor installed. I had to do an evening drop off and they didn't have a drop box. So I put my key and battery in an envelope and parked at the installer's shop. I locked the car with the app and left it there overnight. In the morning, the installer called me when they were ready to move the car and I opened it up with the app. The put the battery in the key and all was well.

    No way to test this, but I suspect that this would be fine over a long term as it would make sense for the key to use non-volatile storage.
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  • Mar 28, 2013
    jerry33
    The programming is in the car's security ECU, not in the fob. Removing the battery from the fob won't cause any problems (other than insurance problems if it gets stolen and the thief knows enough to insert a battery).
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  • Mar 28, 2013
    araxara
    What is all this talk about a battery for the FOB? I thought if your battery dies, then all you need to do is place the FOB in one of the cup holders to turn on the car.

    -----
    Never Mind. I just tried that with my car and it doesn't work. The battery is needed.
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  • Mar 28, 2013
    neroden
  • Mar 28, 2013
    carrerascott
    Somewhat back to the original issue here, keep in mind if you have your key in your pocket and are showing someone the car, they can hop in the drivers seat and drive away. As long as they don't stop and get out, they can drive it until the battery dies... this definitely needs to be fixed.
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  • Apr 1, 2013
    kishdude
    I don't think that this is such an easy fix. If they set the software such that if the car doesn't sense the battery after being turned on, then you will get many situations where in legitimate circumstances when a driver has the key in the car but the battery is weak, the car will stop which is not a good situation. All other keyless cars that I've owned have worked the same way.

    1) Key must be present in the vehicle to start
    2) once started, the car will continue to run but will warn you if it does not sense the key.

    This seems to work well and should be how the Tesla should work. Can anyone confirm that the car doesn't warn you if the key is not in the car? It seems to me that my car does warn me, but I haven't tested this specifically.
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  • Apr 1, 2013
    carrerascott
    It has warned me at times, but if I have the key on a hook near the car it doesn't, and once I drive off I didn't notice any warning. I can try to recreate it sometime, but I'm out of town till next week.
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  • Apr 1, 2013
    sp4rk
    I'm a little bemused by this thread.

    As ... twice now ... I have sat in my car ... after Tesla time outside it, only to be told by Nicola that she cannot find the key in my pocket.

    So where is she looking? :)

    Walked away; came back after "out of range" and it works.
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  • Apr 1, 2013
    Rodolfo Paiz
    So, is that a Tesla keyfob in your pocket, or...? :-D

    Yeah yeah, I know... adolescent humor. :)
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  • Apr 1, 2013
    Babylonfive
    Brian,

    I think that there is a position for an UNDERPOWERED fob to still operate (near the passenger windshield, but I don't think the fob has a method for powering itself with no battery power. My understanding was that the special location was just as close to the antenna as you could get and maximized the chances of a successful communication even at very low power... FWIW
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    DrTaras
    proximity sensors for the Home Link allow car to be opened without the key?

    I had another twist on this in the reverse and figured rekindling this thread was better than starting a new thread...
    My car is parked in my secure garage. Sometimes I go there to retrieve something out of it. In all my other cars, the doors are left unlocked in my garage so I can simply open the door & retrieve away. With my Model S I have to have the key on me to open the doors. Since the car knows that it is in the garage (proximity sensors for the Home Link) I wonder if there could be a future software upgrade that allows the Model S to be open-able (maybe just tap on the retracted door handle) even if you don't have the key with you? Either that or have carrerascott install that magic hook that he mentioned in one of his 1st posts :wink:
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    gctseng
    Warning would be nice, but def. one concern is that someone can START the car and drive off while the fob is OUTSIDE of the car. I just confirmed this by walking in the garage and, keeping the key away from the car about 1 foot (put it on a stool near the car), opened the door, sat in the car, and started driving.

    No warning.

    Troubling, as even my old 2006 Prius could tell if the fob was inside the car. Heck, the could be in the trunk and it could start. However, if there was no key in the car, it wouldn't start (or would warn that the key was away from the car if I had started the car and walked away with the key).

    I agree the car should not shut off once it is started with the key in the car if it somehow loses connection with the key, but should throw up a warning.

    I seriously doubt this is beyond the engineering talents of Tesla's engineering team. Someone just needs to diagram the logic.


    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    jerry33
    The Prius has a transponder at each of the active door handle locations plus one in the dash area. This allows it to triangulate and find the fob's location. The Tesla appears to have only one, or perhaps two, transponders, so it can only measure distance. This appears to be a cost cutting measure.
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    wycolo
    'Valet' is not found in this thread? Has Valet Mode feature been removed or deemed useless (over-rideable)?
    --
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    deonb
    It does - it has an RFID transponder in it to allow it to operate without power. The 2 RFID receivers in the car is close to the windshield on the passenger side, as well as in the cupholder.
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    Robecology
    The app let's you access the car?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Found it. Another reason this car IS the future.
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    araxara
    I have the same issue. What I do is unlock the car as I walk away from it (by double pressing the top of the key fob) and place the key inside the home in a convenient location.

    There are no HomeLink proximity sensors. The HomeLink menu pops up due to the car recognizing the GPS location. But, obviously, the GPS location could be used to leave the doors unlocked.
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  • Jul 5, 2013
    gctseng
    This would be a nice option, although I'm sure many people would not necessarily feel comfortable with their car unlocked all the time, even at home.

    App doesn't let you start the car, so doesn't address the forgetting your keys and driving away.

    Haha. Sad. Let's hope this isn't a big deal.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
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  • Jul 6, 2013
    DrTaras
    And it stays unlocked? I thought that after a certain amount of time it will lock. Don't the door handles get sucked in so how would you get into your car, in your garage without the key?

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's why they call 'em "options." You'd have a toggle option to not change the current settings; I'd even be in favor of letting the default settings be the current ones and you'd have to over ride to have the "DrTaras" option :wink:
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  • Jul 6, 2013
    jerry33
    Mine locks after a few seconds as long as I'm not standing right by it with the fob. If I am then the handles retract but the car stays unlocked until I walk away. Handles retracting appear to be time based, locking is distance based.
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  • Jul 6, 2013
    ggr
    If the handles are retracted, you can just press one to get them out again (assuming the car is actually unlocked or the key is close).
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  • Jul 6, 2013
    jerry33
    Right.
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  • Jul 6, 2013
    NigelM
    Just turn off the "walk-away" lock function.
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  • Jul 20, 2013
    Charles
    This is one of those things that got me shying away from the tech package. I don't want me walking away from car, Someone reaches to the door handle before it fully retracting and drives away with it. XD
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  • Dec 8, 2015
    AWDtsla
    This happened to me this morning. One key was inside a metal box in the garage, other key was 20ft+ away. I realized I had forgotten the key just as I sat down, but the car turned on anyway... try to put it in drive.. yup goes into drive. Drove about 40ft down the driveway, still no complaint from the car!! WTF?
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  • Dec 8, 2015
    bonnie
    Love this idea.

    I borrowed a Model S about a year ago & drove off with the key fob still in the other person's pocket. I was halfway home (140 miles) when I realized ... no fob. I spent the next 70 miles wishing I hadn't had those last two cups of coffee. :) Good news was they could start the car remotely and also fedex'd the fob to me immediately.

    Easy to forget. But I wouldn't like to see the constraints being suggested here.
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  • Dec 8, 2015
    apacheguy
    Yeah, Tesla needs to improve key sensing behavior.

    1. It should chime at you when a key is not detected and the vehicle is in drive.

    2. It should not allow the car to lock when a key is inside and the car is off. Several folks have reported unknowingly misplacing their key, walking away, and returning only to find they are locked out. Luckily, the iPhone app comes to the rescue provided that you are within coverage.
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  • Dec 8, 2015
    mknox
    The problem is it can't seem to distinguish whether the key is "inside" or "outside". It only seems to be able to determine if it can see the key or not.

    Similar to @GasDoc, I keep a spare battery in the car (but not a spare fob). I figure if my fob battery dies, I can still get in the car with my phone app, then swap out my fob battery once inside. This does not solve a lost or broken fob but (knock on wood) that hasn't happened to me on any of my fob-equipped cars yet!
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  • Dec 8, 2015
    demundus
    My older 2013 knows inside from outside for sure. I was doing my headlight swap the other day and had my key on the roof above the drivers side door. The car would not allow me to turn it on when I wanted to test my headlights (sit in the seat press the brake). "Key not inside"... grabbed it off the roof and brought it in the car, all of maybe 1 foot from where it was, and it was fine.

    Also doesn't the iphone app allow you to drive the car now without the key incase you forget it or lose it?
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    mknox
    That's weird, and different from my early 2013. I once left my key on the workbench in my garage and was able to get in and back the car out to the driveway (unintended... I thought the key was in my pocket). As I backed out of the garage, I did get the "key no longer in car" message on the dash. That was a while ago. I wonder if newer firmware has changed this behavior? Will have to re-test.
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    green1
    My bet is that it doesn't know inside from outside, but rather couldnt' see the key at all, possibly it was in a small dead spot, or some other interference was causing issues.
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    Skotty
    Pinging for the keyfob constantly is undesirable from a developer perspective, but it seems they could use the GPS to their advantage. After the car is started, as soon as the GPS location indicates the car has moved X distance from it's starting point, it could do a single ping of the keyfob and throw up a warning or whatever if it's not detected. No further pings required.
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    Shaggy
    I would suspect it is range on the Model S from more than one sensor? Do you think it triangulates? I bet this is a programming issue that isn't high on the list yet, it may have been disabled for other reason and not yet tested to put back.

    I've had my Fusion refuse to unlock with my fob in an opposite the door pocket and a briefcase between it and the door, doing a little twist got it to open. When I step out to get mail and the car is running as soon as the door shuts it honks twice and pops a no key message.

    So I've gotten in the habit now of only it in the right front pocket. Ford has the powered down FOB pocket inside the center console, so I also assume it has an RFID chip as well.
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    mibaro2
    Yes, the iPhone app allows you to drive the car without the key. I have used it several times when I forgot my key at my desk and went down to drive away at lunch. Works like a charm.
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  • Dec 11, 2015
    ken830
    My early 2013 car used to not know if the key is inside or out, but after a FW update back in mid 2014, that changed. I know, because if I just pop open a door and try to roll the window up or down, it doesn't respond anymore. I have to hold the key just inside the door opening before it'll work. This works with the front or rear doors.
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