Thứ Tư, 1 tháng 2, 2017

First Production Cars Delivered Sep 29 at Factory per Elon Tweet part 1

  • Sep 2, 2015
    CmdrThor
    Screen Shot 2015-09-02 at 5.00.43 PM.png

    Looks like you have your delivery date Bonnie!
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    dirkhh
    Musk: first deliveries Sep 29 @ Fremont

    Just a minute ago in a tweet:
    elon.png
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    roblab
    I might drive down there just for the gala presentation.
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    dirkhh
    I'd recommend planning to camp out there for a few days because you may not be alone with that idea...
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    Omer
    does production mean sig series or founders?
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    S'toon
    I'm guessing a combination of both. For example, Bjorn won't receive a Founders until all his references take deliver, so they might delay those 3 winners' in particular.
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    AnOutsider
    Bonnie is still waiting to hear if getting warmed rear seats means a delay!
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    bonnie
    Pretty sure this is a delivery event for Founders, not Sigs.

    I doubt there is anyone who wants me to be wrong on this more than I.
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    adiggs
    After waiting all this time, the very idea that delivery might be in 27 days sort of takes your breath away, doesn't it?
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    Doesn't the referral program end the next day? That would give fence sitters a day to decide if they want to go for the S and get the referral credit or hold out for the X.
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    timf
    The referral program runs through October 31.
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    SBenson
    Whether it's Founders or Signatures, the fact that Musk publicly announced that "production" cars will be handed on 29th makes me feel that the car will be fully revealed on that day. I mean, all of the magic in it. From then on we no longer need to guess if the second row seats fold down or not, or how exactly they will fold down. What do you guys say?
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    phooi
    Model X out on Sept. 29

    Per Tweet from Elon:

    @elonmusk: First production cars will be handed over on Sept 29 at our Fremont factory

    Elon Musk on Twitter:
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  • Sep 2, 2015
    Mark Z
  • Sep 3, 2015
    SBenson
    Tesla's Musk Says First Model X SUVs to Be Delivered Sept. 29 - Bloomberg Business

    Tesla Motors Inc. Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said the first Model X sport utility vehicles will be delivered Sept. 29.

    The SUVs will be handed over at the electric-car maker�s Fremont, California, factory, Musk said Wednesday in a Twitter post. The initial vehicles will be Founders Series models, a fully loaded, extremely limited version, Tesla said.
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    AnOutsider
    well, I guess Bonnie will be waiting a bit longer
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    Thanks. I guess that means more time to decide then!
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    vandacca
  • Sep 3, 2015
    Mark Z
    And I will gladly wait longer as well for delivery if necessary. However, if invited to personally see the Founders (and hopefully Bonnie) receive their key fobs at Fremont, I will gladly attend and enjoy the celebration. For me, a factory tour seeing Model X in production would be icing on the cake.
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    andrewket
    I'd fly in to be there, but I suspect that's not in the cards having given up my sig reservation. Unless someone wants to be really nice and take me as their guest :)
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    dadaleus
    Maybe not more, but I also really want you to be wrong!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Disappointment confirmed. Oh well. Can't wait to get started on Gallons of Light 2!
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    ZachShahan
    Yes

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    As far as MSM goes, I'd say Bloomberg is the best by far on the whole when it comes to covering Tesla.
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    Mark Z
    Bonnie, you are right. Tesla has called to discuss various details of my order and delivery so I asked what I could post. Only Founder Model X vehicles will be delivered on September 29th at Fremont. Signature X will be delivered individually as usual.

    My thoughts: While I can get a future delivery at the factory service center, the benefit of local delivery is I won't have concern over rocks and stones hitting Model X driving from Fremont to OC. No delivery date known, so please don't ask!
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    Lyon
    Any news on the headlights?
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    O-G
    Any info on the second row folding seats. That seems to be the biggest issue to everyone.
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  • Sep 3, 2015
    brucet999
    Can you confirm whether or not 360� camera will be offered?
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  • Sep 4, 2015
    Mark Z
    I did not ask Tesla those questions. My call was in regard to local delivery locations and Model X options that would eventually affect delivery timing. They have no idea at this time when delivery will occur. While I mentioned some of my thoughts on the center seat, there were no verifications of anything. The call that Tesla made helps them know the buyer's desires sooner than later. There are no plans for Tesla Motors to drive the Model X up the hill as they did with Model S and Personal Delivery in 2012. Enjoy viewing: Tesla Delivers Anywhere on Vimeo
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  • Sep 4, 2015
    Aljohn
    Can someone explain what a "Founder's" mean. Are these free car provided to initial investors, or special models they or their companies purchase. Just trying to understand the term -- Founders?? How many Founders are there?
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  • Sep 4, 2015
    ViperDoc
  • Sep 4, 2015
    MsElectric
    I believe they are cars for investors and unless I am mistaken you pay the base price for the car and the "options" are free. Could be wrong.
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  • Sep 4, 2015
    lloyds
    Best to get the clear armor done before you make that drive if you choose to do so. That would be a very fun drive!
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  • Sep 5, 2015
    vandacca
    Spoke to a Tesla rep yesterday. He confirmed that the 2nd row does not fold, rotate or transform in any way to make a flag cargo space. The 3rd row seats however do fold flat.
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  • Sep 5, 2015
    dirkhh
    Wow, that's a massive change from what was shown in the earlier presentation about the X. The "what would you do with this much space" appears to be quite inaccurate. Rather disappointing :-(
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  • Sep 5, 2015
    Mark Z
    I will not be making the first drive from the Fremont Service Center to Orange County. Local delivery is being discussed. That will help with the clear bra material to be installed locally.

    OT: At this time NO delivery timeframe has been mentioned and my speculation of next month could end up being "before the end of the year". IMHO, Tesla Motors wants our new vehicles to be as perfect as possible. Quality takes time, so I will be patient and not be concerned if delays occur in the process of making sure everything is just right. Tesla did verify that NO extra delay would result by ordering the Subzero Weather Package. I have talked to a lot of great people with the company this past week and I am extremely pleased for their support and encouragement.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    Paul Carter
    That does not bode well. Darn and I just posted in the seat thread and moved onto this one. DOH.
    Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 19
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    WarpedOne
    Options, people, options!
    Signature seats are as we saw them. Nobody saw non-sig seats yet.

    Signature 2nd row consist of three independent powered seats that move F/R and up down, they may also tilt a bit, but they d not fold in normal sense.

    Not take a break and breath..
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    bwa
    That is, if they physically cover it (I feel like they almost never cover them, almost an "enviro-politic"-hatred of beauty, which is opposite of part of the point of Tesla (and enviro) to begin with). I see open-exterior car carriers head south coming from Tesla fully loaded every other time I'm on USCAI5-CA152-US101-USCAI880 (and I know most train car carriers are partially open to the elements, too). The only thing you'd gain "taking local delivery" (letting oil-headed yahoos handle your car (for pennies on the dollar) instead of you) is liability blame points, not physical protection, unless you luck out and get a fully enclosed carrier who is competent (in your favor, not theirs) at loading and unloading. If you have the money*time, putting competent extra protection layers (Xpel full body?) on nearby the Fremont factory yourself (or equivalent) would have superior protection compared to the approach of only demarcating the liability line in your favor (a roundabout carnival merrygoround of cheap F-U's). I feel like Iowa exports its low-grade insurance products to us Californians by default, letting mishandling be the king of the day.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    ecarfan
    I am not convinced that the Tesla people in the showrooms and service centers have complete and accurate info on the second row seats, but I agree it is possible that the second row does not fold flat. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that the second row seats at the very least will move far forward to provide more cargo space. I do think the third row will fold flat into the space just forward to them, and that will produce quite a large amount of cargo space.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    dwebb66
    Mark, where do you get your clear bra material installed? I have checked our The Tint Pros.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    dirkhh
    My car arrived in Portland with rock chip in the front. Was unprotected on the transport truck.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    I think this speculation and research may be a bit more valuable than that to Signature reservation holders, who do not (at present anyway) have the option to select folding second row seats. They don't have options, people, options. Other than cancelling, of course. :)

    It is useful to know what you are committing into - not just absolutely, but relatively as well. Relative, in this case, to whatever other seats types come to Model X in the immediate future after Signature's ship. It may be the decision between keeping the reservation and/or cancelling and waiting for a production model, for some people.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    Uncle Paul
    I am pretty sure these early pickups will be at the discretion of the buyers.

    If someone wants the first ones on the block, they will need to make a leap of faith.

    I would imagine that if they want to delay their delivery, and let someone else go before them, that Tesla will make acamodations.
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  • Sep 6, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    That, in general, is of course true.

    But in many cases we may be able to make that leap of faith a little smaller - or at least a little more though out and informed - through our analysis. That's the goal of these kinds of discussions for me, anyway.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Mark Z
    I have not decided yet. The Signature Model S had factory installed clear bra.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Lyon
    Yeah, but it was a crappy one that covered 1/3 of the hood and left a nasty line. My dad has it and it drives me nuts. Much better to cover the whole front end.

    My plan is to drive my Model X directly to the place that does the Xpel and do the whole front end.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    dadaleus
    We're getting way off topic, but since it came up: I've done two Model S's at Precision Film Solutions, not far from the Costa Mesa service center. I had my most recent car delivered to Costa Mesa, and drove it straight to get the full body Xpel and Crystaline. They are a huge shop (regional distributor or something like that) always busy with Lambos and other show cars. They did perfect jobs for me both times. My X will go straight there.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Krugerrand
    Only if the first handful of people with the opportunity to get their cars on Sept 29 read related posts and care. My speculation :wink: is they (the very specific early (Sept 29) pickups being discussed; Founders) don't care. You referenced Sig holders in post #41, which is not what this thread is about (and certainly Sig #2 doesn't care about the analysis here as she just goes right to the source for the facts). While some Sig holders may be swayed by such analysis, the people most likely to be swayed are those with early production reservations, but again this isn't the thread for them.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    dadaleus
    I'm Sig #4 and all of this speculation/analysis has been VERY helpful.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Krugerrand
    In what way? And why wouldn't you just talk to Tesla directly? Or Bonnie, who's provided the most constructive information? As an example, how does the seats might fold this way, or might fold that way, or might not fold at all helped you make a decision whether to confirm or not?

    Regardless, you are one person and one person does not a trend nor a majority make.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    AnOutsider
    Ditto here. Getting info out of Tesla is like pulling teeth, so all we CAN do is speculate.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Krugerrand
    Got that, but how does speculating help? How does speculation not simply muddy the waters? I don't get it, but perhaps how I arrive at and make decisions is different.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    dadaleus
    As one example, the possibility that the 2nd row doesn't fold hadn't even occurred to me until reading these threads. Basically, the combined brainpower here helps me think of what to ask/consider even if we don't have all the answers. I appreciate at least knowing what things I may not know! ("Known unknowns vs unknown unknowns")
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Mark Z
    No speculation needed for my order. Tesla management has been crystal clear about my local delivery. The only unknown is the delivery date. Even if I was asked to see my X come off the production line, I would want them to put it on a transporter so I would have flawless paint and a chip free windshield at the local Tesla service center. Don't speculate, NO invite has occurred or hinted for the 29th. Tesla has told me personally that the handoff ceremony is not a event where the Tesla vehicle owners are included or can call (as I occasionally have) to ask to be added to the list.

    IMHO, the Fremont factory workers are the ones who should be in the audience and celebrate their work, their production accomplishments and the historic delivery event to the fullest. They deserve our praise for the excellence we all enjoy everyday while driving a incredible Tesla Motors electric vehicle.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    Indeed. Without TMC (or its kind) most of us wouldn't be as well-versed about the second row and its possible limitations at this stage. It is quite possible some of us would be confirming orders without ever having even thought about whether or not the seats will fold - or whether or not a future Model X might have folding seats instead.

    Now, I think reasonably, we have at least the possibility to consider that this is the case - Sig's ship without folding second rows, but future models may get it - and we can make a bit more educated decision. Known unknowns - I like that phrasing. It doesn't mean I won't be confirming my order, but it means I won't be disappointed by a negative surprise in this area.

    Of course there is the possibility that the Signature seats fold and the fear was for naught, but given what we know it seems reasonable to at least have thought it through. If we get a positive surprise, all the better.

    Tesla isn't talking - and even when they are, their interests aren't aligned with our interests, as they don't want to tell about future product changes that we as buyers might have an interest in finding out. That leaves unofficial and communal channels as the alternative.

    The latter takes a village: I would argue most of us, bonnie and myself included, provide a very singular view on the Model X. Many of us are appreciated as constructive in our own way by some group of members or another, but objectively it must be said we are also all limited in our own way. Few, if any, of us can rise above our unique and partial view points. We all have our blind spots.

    Where the richness lies, is when all those singular perspectives are combined - for example here on TMC on those moments when we as a community rise to the occasion.

    I appreciate the fact that I've received several compliments over the year to the tune of "I don't agree with you, but I think your voice is needed to balance things out" or other words to that effect. I would often say the same to bonnie, for example, with equal combination of disagreement - and genuine appreciation.

    If any one of our voices were to reign over others, we would be less. That is one reason I've so often asked for responses that challenge my thoughts, not merely my style or my person. Together we can improve our thoughts if we put them under the pressure of the community - and that leads to better data reflected in this particular case in a more thought out Model X purchase process.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    EVger
    Thanks for your continued comments, Anxiety Ranger. I find them thoughtful and balanced. I appreciate your humility, relativism, and the effort demonstrated by your posts. Speculation, conjecture, and analysis are welcome, especially in light of Tesla�s very long silence. Your summary of �what we think we know� about the MX and other posts have been very helpful. I live in a complex and uncertain world with room for lots of opinions and styles.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Krugerrand
    So, to answer the question I posed to you...it didn't actually help you to decide whether to confirm your X reservation or not. But it did give you MORE to consider, as I suggested speculation does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That is a big pile of smelly. Back on topic, none of the people receiving their Founders X on Sept 29 care about speculation. And none of the Sig or production reservation holders have to confirm their Model X prior to seeing, feeling and driving one if that's what they require before deciding.

    The rest of your post was wasted on me. You knew it would be knowing that I prefer to communicate without all the extra verbiage, just as I know you dislike it when I parse your posts and/or answer with one word sentences.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    O-G
    FYI, I think that Bonnie has already configured and confirmed, sight unseen, and I was told to expect that I would need to do the same in the next couple weeks, i.e. configure and confirm prior to seeing, much less driving, the MX. I can't even seem to get the detail specs.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    I'm not so sure about the "sight unseen" part. She was in Fremont shortly before the Design Studio for the X went live.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    O-G
    They certainly did not offer that option to me. I may not be #2 but it's a pretty low number, waited 3.5 years, deposit in place. The TM person told me I would most likely need to configure without more information. If offered, I'd fly down, sign NDA, whatever needed in order to have more information before configuring and confirming. I'll have to wait and see. I guess the option is always there to drop out of signature series. Tough to do after all this time.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    Krugerrand
    Not according to her last post/s on the subject. She was still waiting for information.

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    Not offering the option and saying 'most likely' doesn't mean you don't have the option to defer.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    Putting one's head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich is certainly a viable purchase satisfaction strategy at times. I use it myself too sometimes, what you don't know may not hurt you - avoiding forums is a good way to not find out things to watch out for and chances are one won't notice them themselves.

    That said, IF one wants to know about their purchase as much as possible and make an educated choice - or know they'll be unhappy if they miss something - that strategy works much worse. Because in that case you can either think much pre-purchase or do it anyway post-purchase. Doing the thinking beforehand gives you more and less costly options.

    The Founders' don't care because they have insider information anyway. As for Signature reservation holders, it remains to be seen how open Tesla is about possible soon-after Signature model features at the launch. Maybe they will go into detail as well as lay out the roadmap for the first year, in which case speculation on it would be less pertinent.

    My point stands in general, though: Companies have an interest not keeping their customers informed of product changes (and, in some cases, product limitations) - and customers have an interest in knowing. It would be unreasonable to ask the company to go against their interest, but equally it would be unreasonable to then ask the customer to just blindly take the company's word for things. Thus we need unofficial data like leaks and community analysis/speculation to balance things out.

    As I said, the community pressure cooker on developing thoughts requires we actually discuss those thoughts. Reverting to comments on style, person or funny pictures some others use does not develop those thoughts - hence my dislike. As for comparing our posts, at least you have longer explanations to understand me from were you to so desire, I have often much less to go by with the cryptic one-liner responses I get. :)
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    andrewket
    If you confirm sight unseen and for whatever reason decided you were not happy, I'm sure you could flip a sig early in the process and at a minimum make yourself whole.
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  • Sep 7, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    I certainly respect that your order requires no speculation. That is your choice.

    However, to note, if you are one of the early Signature configureres, either Tesla has filled you in on the details under NDA, or I would argue there are tons on unknowns regarding the product you have ordered. :)
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    AnOutsider
    Ain't that the truth. I take some comfort in assuming the ramp to production will be faster this time around though.
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    andrewket
    Maybe.
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    Krugerrand
    Uh, huh, except there's no one putting their head in the sand.

    Irrelevant, not applicable, making stuff up just to have something to go on about etc... Once Founders have their cars the car is 'out', no more secrets about it can be kept, it'll be all over the Internet, Tesla will loosen their lips, and Signature reservationists will have a much easier time coming by information required to make their confirmation decisions without requiring any guesswork on your or anyone else's part. The option to defer until such date is real and isn't going to kill anyone. Doing so also doesn't muddy the waters along the way, or get people all emotional and up in arms because they've misinterpreted speculation as fact - cause that's never happened before. :rolleyes:

    Uh, huh and yet Tesla has several times announced product changes well ahead. So well ahead that some people are complaining about it, right here on this forum. So what you meant to say is SOME TIMES a company's very SPECIFIC interest doesn't align with SOME of their customers or potential customers on said very SPECIFIC interest. When it doesn't suit the dialogue you want to have, you are quick to change your 'style'.

    Now the forum is a pressure cooker? And no, we don't have to discuss anything we don't want to, some discussion topics here are even frowned upon (politics, religion), and people get to be themselves as long as they post within forum rules. Funny pictures, and all those things you dislike serve as important a purpose here as long-winded horse beating posts. I know you'd like to control the direction of this forum, that's been apparent from your many berating posts about TMC and some of its members, but that's not going to happen and so...

    ...I mention posting style because as someone (you) who often talks about the importance of good communication, I'd have thought YOU would try harder to communicate in a form that those you are directly posting to prefer instead of trying to run over them with your own 'style'. I think it only fair, since it's a main point of contention for YOU, that YOU start the ball rolling. For instance when posting directly to me, you could just keep to facts and be succinct. I'd appreciate that and then by human nature I'd be more inclined to communicate back to you in the manner I know you prefer - kind of like I did just now addressing each statement you made with multiple sentences and fuller explanations, and no funny pictures.
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    gizmoboy
    I think I agree with this, but part of me wonders if there really will be a flood of information when the Founders get their cars. Are the (very) limited number of founders likely to broadcast exhaustive information about their cars, or just go on living their privileged and private lives?

    I wasn't around when the S founders got their cars, and even if I was, this isn't exactly apples to apples; do people expect that Tesla will reveal all on 9/29, or that individual Founders themselves will?
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    AnOutsider
    Even if they did, I'd take that a step further. Why do we need to head to the internet to gleam morsels of information dropped by the founders so that we can configure when Tesla should be giving us that information to begin with? With "over speculating" getting some heat here recently, why should it then be relied on to make a purchase decision? Why can't Tesla just step their communication game up?
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    O-G
    I have to so strongly agree. We should be past all the hiding. People, including me, are spending A LOT on this car. I can't understand why, at least after the founders event, TM isn't 100% open with every possible detail of the car. It makes no sense. Where is the gain? I should be able to call and ask how many stitches there are in the headrest. Granted the person on the phone might not know but he should be able to track it down and answer the question. Geez... I can't even figure out how to wire my house since I can't get information. Sure I can pay double to find an electrician willing to drop everything on their schedule to come wire things up after I know but why should I have to do that? I can do it with minimal expense if I have information and time. Plus, there is the issue of permits which do not happen overnight. Not sure how I pick up the car and then bring it home to charge at 110v, 3 MPH. That's going to be a problem. I am a staunch supporter of what the company is doing and think that Elon is amazing with his accomplishments but not sure that I have ever been so frustrated with a process.
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    vandacca
    O-G, at Signature #292, the earliest you'll be able to use the Design Studio is the week of September 28th. By then, a lot of information should have been finalized and made available to everyone. There is a very strong likelihood that you won't be asked to configured until well into October, and if that is the case, you'll have plenty of time to arrange the wiring. But I definitely feel and understand your anxiety. For better or worse, Tesla has some reasons (e.g. maximizing Model-S sales, not being ready, publicity stunt, etc.) for doing things this way. Sometimes, there are negative reasons for the silence that they don't want to publicize, so we'll just have to be a little more patient. I personally think that Tesla (and their suppliers) are still not quite ready and they're trying to get the production line in order, so they're not as far along in the planning as we would like to think they are.

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  • Sep 8, 2015
    etm33
    Steve J seems like he'll share lots of photos and hopefully info...
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    Krugerrand
    1) You don't have to go to the Internet to gleam morsels of information dropped by the Founders so that you can configure... You can just communicate directly with Tesla and wait patiently for them to answer your configuration questions and/or defer. The time will come, as it always does, when Tesla no longer cares to keep the relevant information to themselves. Logically that'll be September 30, 2015 where the Model X is concerned.

    2) Tesla has chosen a particular way to do business. You always have the option to not be a part of that. Tesla isn't hiding the fact that they're going to be stingy with information. Indeed, the CEO made an in-your-face statement last year at one of the ERs and point blank said that Tesla would be keeping their cards closer to their chest from that point forward. The CEO also repeatedly told everyone that there would be no Model X reveal until the first vehicles (Founder) were delivered and yet we've got Model X Reveal Speculation threads, like the Stephen Colbert one. It's not like Tesla keeping stuff secret is a secret. We've had leaked info on this forum asked to be removed by Tesla. If this style of doing business is not agreeable to some people, then those people are free to deal with a company more to their liking.

    The angst of some people on this topic is baffling to me, because it's mostly self-induced.
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  • Sep 8, 2015
    Lyon
    While I get your points, there's a certain amount of arrogance displayed by Tesla by assuming that folks would go along with this plan of promising to pay them a lot of money based upon incomplete information. Yes, the reservation is not really a promise to do anything but Tesla has, in my opinion to obligation to proceed in good faith with those who've let Tesla hold onto a sizable chunk of money for many years. Asking those people to now finalize orders without knowing some pretty basic things about the car is a pretty crappy way to treat customers who've demonstrated a lot of faith and patience.

    When Tesla released Model S, the Sig reservation holders has way more information about the car then Model X Sig holders do. Heck, most of them even got to test drive the thing if they wanted to. It was reasonable to assume Tesla would follow a similar schedule with Model X.

    My understanding is that many folks have tried to get information from Tesla about some of these basic things and have been told there isn't anything to tell yet. They're delivering cars in three weeks, they know what kind of headlights is has and what kind of charger they're putting in it. In fact, they've already got those parts in hand or on order.

    Bottom line for me is that while Tesla may treat people like this, they really shouldn't. It's a bad way to build relationships with customers and it's easy to avoid.

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    We knew many, many things about Model S when the founders took delivery in early June 2012. There were no questions like: what kind of headlights does it have, what kind of charging equipment does it come with and do the seats fold? This whole, we're going to keep it all really hush hush until we deliver cars thing is new for Model X.

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    Yeah, the notion of committing to buy a car with the amount of info Tesla has provided to the early reservation folks is baffling to me. It doesn't need to happen and yet, inexplicably, it is. I get that they want to keep things secret but why do they need to? Drum up demand on "launch" day? That's nonsense, they've got plenty of reservations and will get more when the things hit the road regardless.

    I get that early folks may not get a test drive, they want the first cars to go to owners and maybe a few press cars but they can tell us what kind of headlights it has.
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  • Sep 9, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    That is an option, not the option, though.

    The other option is to do your legal utmost to gain early access to information, insight and understanding that Tesla is not willingly departing with yet. Obviously many of us here are choosing that option - because even when companies are ready to depart with new product information, there is always the next round they are holding close to their chests, which might interest us in our own decision making.

    Tesla has their interests and we have ours. Somewhere along the middle they meet. That's only fair.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Even when the Founders' cars are out, and the car is launched, we probably won't know what features Tesla skipped from the initial launch and are only coming up with a little later. That is where unofficial information, speculation and analysis can help. But I do agree the launch in late September will alleviate many of the basic concerns of Signature reservationists. And if we are lucky, maybe Tesla will even spill some beans on the Model X roadmap.

    Obviously my comment was related to those cases where Tesla - or other companies - have not announced product changes beforehand. Although, even in cases where they do announce before hand, unofficial data and speculation may have gotten there even sooner, possibly helping some customers defer their purchase decisions if waiting for a particular soon-to-come feature matters for them.

    Metaphor, obviously. As for controlling the forum, I have no such desire. I am expressing my views, as are you. Do I hope some of those views affect, IMO, positive change? Of course. Control? No.

    Addressing people from their viewpoint is, of course, a good communications strategy. Hard to accomplish sometimes in the heat of the moment, but I don't disagree with this goal.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    AnOutsider
    lol, the good ole "you don't like it!? LEAVE!" response. I love my car, and I suspect I'll love the X as well. I don't, however, love doing business with Tesla Motors the company.

    Since there seems to be some notion that I'm too much of an idiot to reach out to get the information I want, I've emailed three times (and sent a followup this morning before even hitting TMC). Tesla isn't even giving the decency of a "we can't answer that right now" response. Just dead silence.

    They're the only game in town right now, so they can afford to treat customers like crap and we'll have to grin and bear it, but I can't see that lasting forever.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    vandacca
    I agree Krugerrand that the angst is self-induced and I would go further to say that Tesla has purposely created an environment where this type of reaction can flourish. All this uncertainty has created a huge discussion which has kept Tesla in the foreground of everyone's attention. Imagine if all our questions were answered - we would all say, "great, let's move on with the rest of our lives". This is a great marketing strategy which has other benefits too: it can allow Tesla to change their minds and make last-minute decisions without having to make it public and preserving Tesla's image as a well thought-out company. This policy works for Apple too.

    Now, Tesla is not perfect and they have and will continue to make mistakes or at the very least make choices that could have been better. Pointing out improvements can be a constructive endeavour done with deep affection for the company. It seems very obvious to me that about 98% of the people in this forum are Tesla "fans" (of varying degree) with a few trolls every once in awhile. But those trolls never seem to last more than a few months. Telling a fan to go "deal with a company more to their liking" is a very stinging and insulting statement to someone that would like to see Tesla flourish, and it doesn't help reduce the angst in any way.

    Just saying, I think we all have a lot more in common than we are diverse, which is why we all flocked to this forum.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    mzpolo
    Do y'all think that you are going to get any different response from Ford, GM, Chrysler? Tesla may not sell as many cars but seriously... what do you think the Big three reveal prior to making the vehicle available to the public? Walk into a dealer and ask to order a 2017 anything. When they laugh, complain that you saw that the manufacturer had announced the car and showed it in a marketing campaign. When they kick you out, go to the headquarters and see if anyone cares to listen, take an order for a car or give you any hint to any details of the 2017 release.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    AnOutsider
    That's not a good analogy IMO. Ford or GM aren't holding 10's of thousands of dollars in deposits. Nor are they asking folks to confirm their order for said product sans-info. I see you're #7004. Would you feel the same if, when your time came to order, you had little information to go on? If you had questions that no one would answer?
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    mzpolo
    My wife and I visited a store this weekend in fact to look at colors and combinations. Yes, we are very very comfortable finishing our order with the info available right now. Our only dilemma comes if the white seats are available for production models.
    My point though is that we all put ourselves in the position we are in. We, for whatever our individual reasons are, chose to put down money on a car that was not yet developed. Don't blame Tesla for not providing information that was never implied to be available on confirmation let alone promised to be available.
    I know I sound like a brat and don't mean to be. Healthy discussion, I am buying first round.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    Krugerrand
    I'm not disagreeing with or arguing that point or any related point. But none of *this* (what's being discussed) is new, or news, or top secret. So when one willingly becomes a part of it by plunking down a reservation, you agree to play by Tesla's rules. To suddenly think that because your number (reservation) has been called will lead to Tesla becoming unTeslalike is to delude one's self and create a bunch of self-induced angst.

    To be clear, I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with Tesla's business choices, I'm accepting the truth of them and reminding everyone that it's been this way since the beginning and that you made that choice. If it's no longer something you want to do, make a different choice and be done with it.

    Tesla is not forcing anyone to confirm their orders if they aren't comfortable with the amount of information they possess. The option for you to defer or get a full refund is on the table and always has been. Even the option to test drive will be made available to you if you require it. There's nothing crappy going on except a bunch of impatience. Yes, I understand it's been a long wait. And again I remind you, you've chosen not to get a refund all this time.

    The information will be available on Sept 30 and as I said, if you require a test drive you'll be given that opportunity.

    They are delivering a handful of Founder's cars in 3 weeks. The Founders either know what they are getting (quite likely), or they don't care (also quite likely). Following the Sept 29th event, information that some Sig reservationists need to know prior to confirming will be available. The release of this information is not new, news, or a surprise. Tesla has telegraphed this for quite some time now.

    You willingly took part in this experience by placing a reservation for a vehicle you only saw as a prototype. You willingly took part in the long wait, at no point taking the opportunity afforded to you to cancel and receive a refund. I understand you feel you've been mistreated, but you played a role and you need to be responsible for your part and the choices you've made along the way. Make different choices where Tesla is concerned if you need to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    First, I don't differentiate between fans and non-fans when I comment. It's irrelevant. Secondly, it's no more stinging and insulting to remind people they have options and the ability to make other choices that would relieve their angst and make them happier than it is stinging and insulting to continually berate Tesla for choosing their business model, particularly if you're going to claim the people doing it are 'fans'. People love to talk about constructive criticism being helpful for Tesla and yet most of those talking about it don't have the first clue how to present said constructive criticism.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    AnOutsider
    We can play this game back and forth all day, but no where was it stated that we WOULDN'T have that info either. For the Model S, we had gobs of info available to go forward. Heck, I got to drive the car beforehand, and that was after having a deposit down for 3+ years. Back then though, my high on Tesla was so firmly in place that I still probably would have configured sight-unseen. This time around, I have some questions and I don't think I'm being unreasonable to expect Tesla to either answer or at least acknowledge that they can't answer just yet. Complete silence is disrespectful IMO and only further breeds the angst that I apparently brought upon myself.

    In your case, if you are comfortable with the info you have, that's dine, but please don't dismiss those of us who have questions they'd like answered before making a final decision. Please don't put the blame on us for having a (n IMO) reasonable expectation of information, or at the very least, communication.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    Trev Page
    Part of this is Tesla not wanting Model X to cannibalize sales of Model S at this point but also I think it's Elon's true belief of wanting a splashy reveal.

    The problem here is that it generates a complete information vacuum and thus generates tons of wild speculation, one look at the Model X mule sightings thread and you get the idea, and eventually sets up a bad precedent for high expectations and let downs when the information is finally made public.

    We've seen it so many times, especially with Apple products since they behave just like Tesla does, or is the other way around? ;)

    The main difference however is that it's much much harder to keep a car secret when you have to test on public roads and everyone has a cell phone taking pictures of anything unusual and posting it online for everyone to see. The slightest difference in the mule sightings whipped everyone into a frenzy of speculation.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    vandacca
    One could also make the argument that Tesla promised folding 2nd/3rd row seats, clearing displaying a slide showing this at the reveal event. It would appear that they may have reneged on that promise, so there is justification in people's reluctance. But as it has been pointed out, getting a refund is an option. I would just prefer very few people to request a refund because I own TSLA stock.

    Furthermore, even if you do not own TSLA stock, suggesting people get a refund is not a valid solution. I'm sure we all want a healthy, viable company here and if enough people requested refunds, it would severely harm the company or at the very least limit their ability to perform. Ultimately, a company needs to please their customers, if they don't, they go under as people will take their business elsewhere.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    Trev Page
    Very true about the seats however they might have decided to go a different route on this. Elon has been quoted many times as saying the seats were "special", whatever that means, and that they we're harder than the Falcon wings to do at the end of the day. Time will tell soon enough.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    sub
    If some people want more info that is understandable. If they choose to cancel their order or drop back in line then someone else will gladly move forward and take their spot. It's not going to affect the company, they have a huge backlog and those that step out of line will most likely get back in line at some point. I'm a share holder as well and I doubt their would be more than a very minor effect on the stock short term if a few people want to wait for more details. I'm not in line, can't get myself to justify the price, but if I were I would be fine with the current information because I don't sweat the small stuff, life is too short. I can't believe some people are putting "folding seats" higher up on their priority list above many more important things including the environment. I will be shocked if the 2nd row seats do not fold or move in some other way.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    I'm all for the environment and that's one of main reasons why I chose the X. If the seats don't fold, then it most likely won't meet my needs and I will either need to have two cars in order to handle all of my use cases.

    I would be shocked as well if the second row seats don't fold in some way. If they don't, then the X is no longer an SUV/CUV as it would be severely lacking in utility.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2015
    eloder


    A lot of different products, companies, services, etc. function in a similar manner. Kickstarter products, pre-orders for games, my Amazon Echo I pre-ordered a long time ago. It's no different. Cell phones are probably a big example (even lower-income folk with a lot of financial burdens will order $600+ phones having no idea of exactly how it'll be).

    I'm sure you'll probably argue it's different due to the cost, but it's all relative. A $600 preorder for a new smartphone for someone of a lower income isn't much different than dropping $130k of someone with proportionately more wealth. I can only assume that those people who've dropped what was it, some 40k on a sig reservation and are OK holding it interest-free for three years, must have some sort of financial well-being to be able to do that.

    I may be wrong but I just view the Model X sig folk in a similar light to those who drop thousands on kickstarter campaigns when those don't even have the security of a refund if they change their mind.

    Would I pre-order a car even with no details known? I probably will for the Model 3, but I doubt I would for something more expensive. My risk tolerance is OK for a Model 3 but not something like a Model X. Given my tolerance for risk, I'd be OK if the Model 3 doesn't turn out how I imagine it because I'm sure details will be extremely sparse. As long as it's a bit smaller than the Model S, is electric, goes over 200 miles, and accelerates faster than other econo-EVs and I'll accept it. That's just about the same level of detail Model 3 reservers had, so if people are no longer willing to take the risk within Tesla's means of communication, then they should take the deferral allowed by their reservation.

    I'm sure everyone would wish that all Model X details would be known instantly, but that's just not how Tesla operates right now for better or for worse. They obviously are not trying to impact Model S orders by being so sparse in details, but if people aren't a fan of it then there's always the option of deferral. With an estimated 27k+ pre-orders, Tesla doesn't need to fight for customers until the ramp-up is underway.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2015
    Mark Z
    The only speculation for me was the reflective qualities of the Figured Ash Wood D�cor. I asked Tesla additional questions about it and received more detail that gave me confidence to take the chance on choosing what I personally was most impressed with, when visiting the Design Studio. Tesla Motors said to trust what is seen in the Design Studio when making decisions. The challenge can be the accuracy that the artists and IT people put into the web pages. The posts at Signature X Seat, Belt and Interior Colors show the differences between the Model S and X design studio color and shading. As a retired engineer, I can be obsessed with detail, but that's just part of the process. When you are facing a deadline to make decisions, it sometimes requires dropping everything and immersing oneself into the process of research. I have stated at the Tesla Forum, my only disappointment was the incorrect information at the Design Studio during the first hours of operation that showed "White Leather Seats". Tesla Motors took that text down and replaced it with "Ultra White Seats" hours later. Later that day I learned the material was synthetic. A phone call or email reply was always given within hours by an assigned individual who continues to be very enjoyable to communicate with. She doesn't know all the answers either, but she has done her best to find out and has provided me that information. To help others, I have spent hours posting data and helped Bj�rn with screens for his video. I did similar activity when purchasing a Segway in 2003, a Chevrolet Volt in 2010 and the Model S Signature in 2012. While I attempt to be as accurate as possible, some error can occur in posting. Individuals reading these threads would be wise to keep reading, to search for the corrective posts and latest information. If I had editing powers beyond the limited time given, I could go back and make corrections. I even sent a PM to the administrator at TMC to make a critical change and it has not been done. I am more upset over an error in my post that I cannot correct, then the lack of information from Tesla that does get an answer after their research to find the answer.

    In regard to "tons on unknowns", I would argue that the forum and listening to others can be far more informative than when a corporation may be attempting to time their announcements for the media rather than letting the proverbial cat out of the bag and possibly lose precious shareholder value. Let me be clear, I have never been shown or asked to sign an NDA. I have shared the facts I know, unless specifically asked to only share what they know to be accurate. Tesla employees don't have all the information either. A few told me they learned about the interior design from the sharing of the Design Studio screens by the customers. The majority of the employees don't work in the design department, so it is understandable that the employees outside the department would not know. No one at an Apple Store knows the precise facts until they are released at a corporate announcement, such as Apple recently announcing the new 12.9" iPad with Pencil and external keyboard. Of course I feel Tesla should have sent a FedEx package to each buyer with the two wood samples and a swath of the synthetic seat material. But who knows if some of these materials are still being tweaked. A sample sent today might be improved before production. These are just my thoughts, but with a possibility of change, it would be a reasonable explanation for Tesla to not provide the new choices at the Tesla Stores until the first production vehicles are shipped.

    In summary, my order is confirmed, the VIN issued and I continue to answer some questions on the forums to help share what I know. As soon as the Model X is delivered, a detailed explanation of the reflective quality of the Figured Ash Wood D�cor and other details can be posted with photos that will help many here and at other forums where people learn the precise details they seek to buy their own Tesla electric vehicle in the future. Those who are new to the technology are the ones who appreciate the facts that are known, without excessive speculation on the unknown. It will be interesting to view the difference in comments between the various forums after the same facts about Model X are shared. The excitement of delivery is only the beginning. Just like the Segway, Volt, or Model S, everywhere we travel with new technology can be a day of questions and answers. You can choose to enjoy sharing the great things about an invention, or complain about it's shortcomings. I prefer to share what is great about a product and keep looking forward to the improvements that are sent automatically through software or the improved hardware that is purchased to enable new capabilities that will inspire the other interested buyers as we share the experience.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2015
    brucet999
    Can you tell us whether 360� view parking assist made it into the X?

    Have the side sensors been upgraded to radar instead of the short range sensors in present day Model S?

    Thanks
    �
  • Sep 10, 2015
    Krugerrand
    And a perfectly fine option.

    Yes, let's play the what if game all day long and never make a decision. That's also an option.

    Now things need to be fair? Really? Are we five?

    If you're going to correct me about an 'an' versus a 'the', then I'm going to require you to be very specific when making broad comments like you did and am not going to accept a comeback of an 'obviously I was referring to such and such'. That's only fair, don't you think?

    Obviously. And yes you do have a desire. Yep, I sometimes express my views, more times than not I make those funnies you dislike. What I'm not doing is negatively characterizing the forum (which you've done) and going on about how it needs to change to make it the way you think it should be. That, sir, is a form of (trying to) control things.
    �
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