Apr 5, 2013
qphan79 Is anyone out there experiencing any noticeable battery degradation? I have had my 60kwh Model S since mid -February. When I picked it up from the service center, the rated range was 189 miles. The first night I had the car i actually did a max range charge because it was my first day of actual driving and my destination was about 80 miles away. Anyway, since then, I've only did a max range charge once more about two weeks ago. With the standard charge, I noticed that i was only getting about 187-188 miles initially.
This has continued to drop where I now get a standard charge of about 184-185. This is after the charging is complete. By the time I get in the car to drive off it can drop to 181-182. I've called the service at Tesla but they only said that they will be downloading some information and get back to me. I still haven't heard back and it's been over 2 weeks. Does anyone else out there notice that their standard charge has dropped? Btw, my max range charge last week showed 197 but it started going down after about 3 miles whereas the first time I did a max charge it stayed at 197 for about 10 miles.�
Apr 5, 2013
Babylonfive It makes a difference when you look and when you charge.
If you charge early when you get home, and there is any vampire charge overnight, then the system might not kick back in and charge it to absolute maximum.
One reason that I now have my charging time set (SW v4.3) to early morning, with only enough time to finish charging just before I leave for work. Maximizes my normal range in the morning, but minimizes the time the battery has the higher SOC (state of charge). Win-win, unless I decide to bug out in the night... 8 \�
Apr 5, 2013
stopcrazypp To compare battery degradation you have to look at the number immediately after it is done charging. And that number can get lower in colder temperatures, so make sure to compare at the same temperature. I know people with 85kWh see about 237-240 rated range, 275-280 ideal range in Standard Charge. The lowest reported is 271 ideal range in Standard Charge.
There seems to be some variance though so don't expect hard numbers (it can be higher or lower).
Also I think the 197 range charge max number is a software bug that has been reported before.�
Apr 5, 2013
qphan79 Sorry I forgot to add that my car is garaged and I live in Southern California where the lows have been in the 50's. And my numbers above are usually right at the end of a charge or an hour or two after. Basically, I haven't seen a standard charge of 189 since the day i picked up the car ( except for the two times I did a max charge)�
Apr 5, 2013
Todd Burch On my 85 (non-perf), I haven't noticed any at all after nearly 5,000 miles and 3.5 months of driving. My standard charge is always done at 240-242 rated miles. (Haven't done a range charge at all yet).�
Apr 5, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla With a 60, at 4,200 miles, I've been consistently seeing 190/189 miles right after it finishes charging. I've never ever done a full max charge (only changed that setting briefly from the mobile app to do the workaround to get the car to use shore power for preconditioning the cabin a couple of times).
My commute and charging patterns are very different though from yours, qphan79. Unlike your deep charge cycles at home to recover 110 miles every weekday (assuming you don't charge at work) and lots on weekends as well, I recover most or all of the 27 miles one-way by trickle-charging from 110V outlets at work; and, charge quickly from a 14-50 outlet at home to recover the 27 miles once back home. Very shallow cycles and probably "gentle" ones at work. Don't do more than 90 miles at most on each weekend day and even there, if I come back home between errands, I top it off from the 14-50.
It's concerning though that the deep cycles could have such an impact so quickly.�
Apr 5, 2013
FredTMC
I also have a 60kwh delivered in mid feb. I'm getting 188 mi on a standard charge now.�
Apr 6, 2013
Al Sherman I'm guessing this is the deal.
If I happen to catch my P85 right at the end of the charge it is 240-242. If I just go out to the car normally in the morning it is usually 235-238. Just seems like vampire loss before reaching the threshold to get topped up.�
Apr 6, 2013
Zythryn Additional information would be helpful (thanks for updating us with the temps and your location).
What software version are you on?
If you are on 4.2, the rated range can fluctuate some, typically based on temps, so yours shouldn't continue to go down unless it gets colder.
I would follow up with your service department and ask for a follow up. If you aren't getting a response from them, try [email�protected].
As for battery degradation, none after 8400 miles and 6 months here.�
Apr 6, 2013
qphan79 
Still on 4.2 software. Again, I don't think it's temperature related...it's been in the mid 50's for the lows out here and the car is garaged.�
Apr 6, 2013
bhuwan Hopefully threes a food explanation for this.�
Apr 6, 2013
qphan79 I could definitely use some breakfast...:biggrin:�
Apr 6, 2013
qwk How many miles does your car have on it? I think that firmware 4.2 has a different way of calculating rated range based on many factors such as temperature at the current time. Mine is erratic(85 kwh pack, 1k miles, 136-139 standard charge, car hasn't seen below 55 miles rated range, no max charges) little rhyme or reason for it. My battery has been babied, and I don't see the 242 of rated range some here do. Am I concerned? No. The discrepancies are most likely in the range calculation algorithm.�
Apr 6, 2013
kevincwelch Some of it might be software-related.
On 4.2, I would end a standard charge at 238-239, rarely 240. On 4.3, I get 241-242 after a standard charge. Like it was stated before, I can end at 242 and overnight in colder temperatures, walk out to my car in the AM with a charge of 235. That loss I attribute to vampire load.�
Apr 6, 2013
BobbyK We are seeing the same with our 60kwh
We took delivery of our 60kwh Model S on March 2. Our initial charge rated range was 190 miles for a standard charge. We did two max range charges and now our rated charges are 187 and no more. Our car is also in Southern California and kept in a garage. We charge every night. Thanks for the post as we were not sure anyone else was experiencing this.�
Apr 6, 2013
Doug_G Oddly enough, my P85 is showing a higher range number now - ever since the 4.3 upgrade.�
Apr 6, 2013
Oyvind.H Must be software glitch, or some cell failure? 1,16% in a month is way above what to be expected, and not in line with neither statistics or Panasonics official results.
However, I see in Panasonics graph that the quickest degradation happens the first 50 cycles, and then it the pace of degradation becomes slower and slower the closer you get to 500 cycles. These are full cycles though. Shallow cycling will dramatically reduce degradation from wear (probably by as much as 50-90%!)�
Apr 6, 2013
100thMonkey In the Leaf world we call the distance to zero meter the Guess O-Meter, or GOM for short. the projected/ideal range is a guess at best, a shot a clairvoyance into the unpredictable nature of your future driving, there is no system on the planet than can accurately predict how far you can drive on a given amount of electricity, or gas for that matter. Add the fluctuations in ambient temperatures, wind, rain/snow etc to the changing routine and you will have an ever changing number. Tony Williams is the only one who seems to have really mastered how to measure range loss and he recommends ignoring the GOM on the Leaf and I bet he'd suggest ignoring the rated/ideal range on the S as well, though it seems a bit more consistent. the only real way to test for range loss is to create a benchmark when the car is new, starting with a full charge and then driving in test like conditions, leveling out the fluctuations in Watts per mile or miles per kW until the car is dead and then measuring the amount of energy from an actual meter, that it takes to charge to full. in the Leaf with a smaller battery, this was much easier, with the Tesla S it takes considerable time investment, but once you have a benchmark you can periodically test the car on the same route you created the benchmark with, at the same ambient temperature, weather conditions, same speed/Watts per mile and get a relatively accurate measurement.
There is one big difference in the way that the Tesla shows the SOC vs the Leaf, and that is there are two screens that show enough resolution that you can surmise % SOC on the S. if you bring up the screen that shows the SOC broken out into 10 "bars", it's conceivable that you can measure the miles you can get on say the first 50% and use that for a benchmark (and save a lot of time), assuming the SOC is always revealing a consistent portion of the actual batteries capacity. as we've seen on the Leaf the accessible portion of the battery changes with temp due to voltage fluctuations... again, doing the test at the same temperature is one of the only ways to get an accurate reading. the fact that the Tesla has TMS does throw a curve ball into it and the vampire loads throw yet another curve ball into it. it will be very tricky to get a rock solid number without creating a standard for your test in terms of both ambient temps and making sure the battery is "cold soaked/unplugged" for the same amount of time prior to performing the test.
there are a lot of Leaf owners who have become obsessed with range and, IMHO, it has ruined their experience of the car. Me personally, I would recommend ignoring the rate/ideal range as much as possible, just know "actual mileage will vary" and just enjoy driving the car. Gradual loss will happen, is not covered under warranty but if something drastic happens, from what I know of Tesla, it will be warrant-able. I seriously doubt Tesla will play the game Nissan has played by simply changing the definition of "gradual" as it suits them, it has cost Nissan dearly on a PR level, causing many owners, including myself, to go from long term owners to trading in and becoming short term Leasers. Tesla seems to always have an eye on the long view, so I suggest saving yourself a lot of fretting on the daily commute and just watch the battery bar rather than the prediction range. unless you are going to be pushing the limits of your particular pack size, you really don't need to be worrying about it.�
Apr 6, 2013
hans I am guessing 92% SOC in the 182 mi picture and 93% SOC in the "Charge Completed" picture. I will charge up my 60 kWh and see what I get. I have 2939mi on my car, picked it up on Jan 19th, and I have max range charged it at least a half dozen times for my longer trips. I am on 4.3 firmware however and I charge at 40A so it's not a totally fair comparison.�
Apr 6, 2013
stopcrazypp One thing not mentioned is battery balance. That also affects the number you see (besides from temps). This may be affected by what power you use too. If Tesla used a 110V source to charge the battery they may see a higher number than if you use 220V. People have reported unusually high numbers when charging with 110V.
Temp is mentioned because it seems for both cases people mention the number they see at delivery being different than what they see at home. It's entirely possible the car was charged at higher temperatures even if you have a garaged car. If Tesla charged at an air conditioned service center/factory, it's entirely possible for the battery to have been charged at or extremely near room temperature. In an unheated garage at night, the temperature is likely significantly lower than room temperature.
In the end, Tesla can probably tell you more since they should be able to see the status of every module in the pack and tell if the pack is out of balance or what SOC/voltage it is at.�
Apr 6, 2013
qwk I'm pretty sure that the balancing of the Model S pack is done differently from the roadster days. In my experience, charging on 120v, also has minimal impact on standard range displayed. I have done a lot of 120V charging with only 1 mile difference, and for all we know, that may be caused by a different factor.�
Apr 6, 2013
mknox That is consistent with my experience (239 to 241, most commonly 240 miles) and I seem to lose about 1/2 to 1 mile per hour of sitting depending on the temperature. I have just upgraded to 4.3 and so haven't had time to look at that closely yet.�
Apr 6, 2013
hans I get to 188 rated miles at 93% SOC. Screenshots and the raw data behind them are below.
182mi Picture
{ charging_state: 'Charging',
charge_to_max_range: false,
max_range_charge_counter: 0,
fast_charger_present: false,
battery_range: 181.97,
est_battery_range: 148.91,
ideal_battery_range: 209.43,
battery_level: 90,
battery_current: 25.5,
charge_starting_range: null,
charge_starting_soc: null,
charger_voltage: 245,
charger_pilot_current: 40,
charger_actual_current: 39,
charger_power: 10,
time_to_full_charge: 0.2,
charge_rate: 28.7,
charge_port_door_open: true,
scheduled_charging_start_time: 1365343200,
scheduled_charging_pending: false,
user_charge_enable_request: null,
charge_enable_request: true }
188mi Picture
{ charging_state: 'Complete',
charge_to_max_range: false,
max_range_charge_counter: 0,
fast_charger_present: false,
battery_range: 187.87,
est_battery_range: 153.7,
ideal_battery_range: 216.23,
battery_level: 93,
battery_current: -0.1,
charge_starting_range: null,
charge_starting_soc: null,
charger_voltage: 0,
charger_pilot_current: 40,
charger_actual_current: 0,
charger_power: 0,
time_to_full_charge: 0,
charge_rate: -1,
charge_port_door_open: true,
scheduled_charging_start_time: 1365343200,
scheduled_charging_pending: false,
user_charge_enable_request: null,
charge_enable_request: false }�
Apr 6, 2013
gaswalla hans, this is awesome data... how do you get that?�
Apr 6, 2013
hans I wrote my own utilities based on the collective work documented in this thread:
Model S REST API
You can snoop in on all the data that the iPhone and Android apps use, and then find a few additional pieces of data not shown in the mobile apps.
I put everything I wrote into the public domain for anyone else to use or improve.
http://github.com/hjespers/teslams�
Apr 7, 2013
napabill That has been my experience for the past several months as well. Until this morning when I checked and it was showing 247 rated miles. Never been over 242 before.�
Apr 8, 2013
jandkw I have the S60 and I normally do the charge at off peak after 9pm and got 186 or 187 miles on standard range. I received the v4.3 with the timer, of course so I set my start time to 10pm and yesterday morning I have 184 miles when my charging cable is still on. The weather that morning was around 50 deg. I then charged again with 190 miles when I left home. What I don't understand is: 1. Does v4.3 cause the difference, 186mi vs 184m ? 2. Does the battery degrade even though my charging cable is still on and at 50 deg. (I know the charge was complete before 2am and my car is idling for about 6 hours) ? 3. Why do I get 190mi when charged again? I will confirm tomorrow morning if I can get back my 186mi for standard charge.�
Apr 8, 2013
qwk I got 243 yesterday. Previous best was 239. 240v 40A charge. This is without any updates or Tesla access( no 3G service where the car is). Maybe the battery needs a few charge cycles in order to display range properly? I have read that some owners are also experiencing this.�
Apr 8, 2013
SFOTurtle I've been on 4.3 since last Thursday. I have seen a maximum standard charge on my 60kWh to be anywhere from 188 to 193 since upgrading to 4.3. Before on 4.2, the maximum I ever saw was 187. Yesterday morning, I charged to 188 in the morning (cooler, probably around 50 F), and then in the wild after a full day of driving, I charged it again full on a 70A charging station to 191 when the temp was around 60-65 F.
One thing I wish they would fix is the rated miles for 60kWh version when doing a range charge. I know this isn't a big priority, but would be nice to get that minor issue fixed instead of having it max out at 197 every time.�
Apr 8, 2013
cinergi 6 months, 8000 miles, still 242 immediately after a standard charge completes.�
Apr 9, 2013
mknox I've checked a couple of days now with v4.3 and am still getting mostly 239 or 240. This morning I got 241 but have never seen higher. I think this is only an approximation anyway and is not indicative of any battery shortcomings.�
Apr 10, 2013
aaron.s I hit 246 Miles on my standard mode charge yesterday!
I'm on 4.3
Aaron�
Apr 10, 2013
Chris 243 in the morning. That's with a charge starting at 2am.
Definitely seeing better ranges with the higher temperatures now!�
Apr 17, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Don't know what the factor is - battery degradation of any kind, warmer weather, or version 4.4 - but, I'm consistently maxing out at 187 miles now compared to 190/189 a couple of weeks ago.�
Apr 17, 2013
FlasherZ I haven't noticed a change in range (it's always been between 240-244 in standard mode and 265-272 in range mode at finish of charge), but I have noticed a BIG change in Wh/mi consumed over the past week. I did my first trip ever at < 300 Wh/mi in my run to the St. Louis airport and back.�
Apr 17, 2013
SFOTurtle Qphan, any update on your charging? Are you seeing any higher numbers?
- - - Updated - - -
Odd, you'd think the warmer temps might push the number a little higher. I've still been bouncing above and below 190 the past two weeks. I am going to take another trip to Sacto this weekend and will do a full standard and then range charge on Sat night/Sunday morning and will be curious what I see with the weather warming over the weekend.�
Apr 18, 2013
qphan79 Nothing so far...had to make another call to Tesla service today and again they said they will get back to me. Pretty frustrated that they haven't gotten back to me or asked me to bring the car in yet. I also finally got the latest software updated, skipped 4.3 and got 4.4 installed a few days ago. No change in the charging though...today's charge was at 183 miles after completing the standard charge.�
Apr 21, 2013
pbrulott 186-193 miles depending if I charge in a cold garage (45F) or warmer (65F) before and after upgrade to 4.4�
Apr 21, 2013
FredTMC I'm getting 187 mi on my 60khw car with 6000 miles on odometer. 4.4 firmware.
However, yesterday I left my house with 187 and went 2.9 miles before the range dropped to 186!
anyone else seeing this behavior on 4.4 with their 60 kwh?! Strange...�
Apr 21, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Pretty much what I see at 5,300 miles. Consistently at 187 in much warmer weather now (saw 80s today).
The quick drop in the first 2-3 miles is par for the course; I wouldn't read anything into that. I see astronomical Wh/mile numbers (anywhere from 550 to 700+!) as I get going in the morning before it gradually drops back to 320 Wh/mile or lower.�
Apr 21, 2013
SFOTurtle Today after doing a partial range charge (where I surpassed 197 for the first time ever -- must be a fix in 4.4?), we took a road trip up to Sacto. On the return, I charged in Davis at the 70A station there. I hit 190 with a standard charge. It was probably 85 degrees F in Davis in the late afternoon.
Incidentally, on the return trip from Davis to my house is used 35 kWh for a distance of 112 miles and rarely went below 70 mph and frequently exceeded 80. My wife, about 50 pounds of cargo, and two empty baby seat bases were in tow. I think the 60s are secretly getting more range than most people realize.�
Apr 22, 2013
Zythryn Actually, he got a very slow drop.
Fred, did you notice what your Watts/mile were over the first few miles?
The rated range is exactly that... rated. If you use less energy, or more, that range can change. If your use a lot more or a lot less energy that range can drop quickly or extremely slowly.�
Apr 24, 2013
qphan79 I called the Costa Mesa service center yesterday and had to explain again my issue. Once again, I was told that they would contact the service HQ in Fremont and call me back. Of course I don't get a call back. So I call again today. This time I insist on them making an appointment to bring the car in. Next appointment not available until May 8th. I expressed my frustration to the service rep about the delays and failure to call back as promised. Was given the same spiel about the usual factors that can affect range (temperature, driving behaviors, ideal va rated range, etc). Told them it was none of the above. Service tech checked in with the service manager...relayed to me that this is likely normal variance and that it was only a "1%" loss. I nearly blew a gasket!!! My range is now down to 181 miles..... I'm sorry, how is 8-9 miles out of 189-190 = 1%. That's over 4% degradation in just over 2 months! I had to call ownership experience to vent to them that I was sorely disappointed in my service and that I felt that they were not taking my concerns seriously. I feel like they are trying to avoid addressing my potential problematic battery. Not sure what else to so at this point.�
Apr 24, 2013
stopcrazypp Seems like 187 miles (in normal temperature and 93% SOC) is fairly common, so that's probably the baseline.
You'll probably be able to find out more if you can get the same data as hans did:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15545-Battery-degradation-after-only-one-month/page3?p=312491&viewfull=1#post312491�
Apr 24, 2013
qwk Dude, relax. The variance is probably normal and nothing to worry about. I get a variance that goes up and down, probably because of different factors like temp, for example. If you really get a drop over time, I'm sure Tesla will take care of it like they did with the roadster. If not, then you can post and vent on here.�
Apr 24, 2013
qphan79 Variance implies that the range would go up and down...mine has been steadily declining. And I already mentioned that temperature is not an issue being in southern califronia and parked in a garage. Was told that twice already that this can be explained by driving behavior. Since my avg energy use is at 292wh/mile, then surely those drivers with >350 wh/mile averages are experiencing a much stronger "variance"! And I first called Tesla about this issue 5 weeks ago...and i followed up with at least 5 calls with NO return calls from them after taking my number down each time and promising a call back each time. So are you agreeing with the service manager that this is just a variance and that 181/189= 1%? Or do you think I am allowed to vent now?
�
Apr 24, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla This is not within any margin of error or variance. The rest of us are seeing 187-189 consistently. Given that it has declined further to 181, there's most certainly an issue here. qphan, try Elon or GeorgeB themselves.�
Apr 24, 2013
FredTMC I agree. That's too much loss. I get 187 after 6k mi�
Apr 24, 2013
stopcrazypp I notice in your picture the car is not done charging (4 minutes remaining) and that the SOC is lower than in the other pictures you posted. You really need to find a way to get the same data as hans in order to do a proper analysis. It may be that your car is at lower SOC than previously and nothing to do with any range variance.
If you look at han's screenshot he was at 182 miles of range at 90%SOC with 12 minutes remaining and 188 miles of range at 93%SOC immediately after charging.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15545-Battery-degradation-after-only-one-month/page3?p=312491&viewfull=1#post312491�
Apr 24, 2013
bonnie Fwiw, I have seen that kind of variance with my Roadster. Usually balancing the pack takes care of the problem. qwk is correct in stating that Tesla has historically been good about addressing any battery pack issue. Think about it ... if there is a battery out there degrading faster than it should, the engineers want their hands on it so they can troubleshoot and identify the cause. That's invaluable information.
On the other hand, if I were a new customer, new to electric vehicles, had read all the fud that has been put out there about battery degradation - seeing a few miles disappear would probably freak me out. All I can tell you is that it doesn't sound like anything than normal variance. Annual maintenance includes a full battery inspection, cell by cell, sheet by sheet. If you have a bad sheet, they'll tell you and take care of it. I'd wait until annual inspection, unless you see it continue to go down at the same rate.�
Apr 24, 2013
qphan79 Bonnie, it may or may not be a minor issue that is easily correctable once they bring it in to check it out. That's sort of the point though....it's taken me 5 weeks of calling just to even get an appointment scheduled for me to bring it in. And it wouldn't have taken 5 weeks if I hadn't exhibited alot of patience. I've been more than fair to them. They haven't done the courtesy of making good on numerous promises to call back and update me. And I felt like my intelligence was insulted by the service manager brushing off my concern as being only a "1% variance". This shouldn't be how you treat customers...�
Apr 24, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Bonnie, have we heard this for sure? The couple of folks, such as dadaleus, who've hit 12,500 miles and got the "annual" done made no mention of that. It was the case for the Roadster probably but, I doubt it'll happen for the Model S given the limited time and resources at the busy Calif. service centers that are already stretched too thin. If they do do this, then, I'd definitely be getting my $600 worth.
Edit: Don't want to derail this thread by talking about the annual inspection too much but, no battery inspection business on that scale is included:
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/na_tesla_service_plan_agreement_sp.pdf
�
Apr 24, 2013
qphan79 Wow, I thought the $600 annual service would at a minimum have a compete diagnostic look at the battery. What does it actually cover??�
Apr 24, 2013
SFOTurtle I've been reading posts from other 60 owners for months now, and OP is the only one to report low 180s consistently and certainly the only one to post that they have never reached high 180s. That is definitely not normal for a new 60 based on the dozens if not hundreds of posts from other owners. I would be just as concerned if it were my car.�
Apr 24, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Sorry, qphan, edited my post above with the details from the service plan agreement. Now, "Vehicle Inspection" could be a catch-all and may or may not include a detailed battery analysis. But, I'm planning on insisting on it for sure; I'd like to see some degree of detail on how the battery looks at my annual service visit; enough with the "secret sauce" bit about the battery
�
Apr 24, 2013
nleggatt Ok ill toss my hat in the mix. Originally I was getting 306-308 on a stanrd charge. Just completed charging nd am at 300 km. I haven't seen higher than 300km since I updated from 4.2 to 4.4
9000km on car�
Apr 24, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Yup, that's roughly 187 miles with 4.4 and that's seemingly the healthy state for a 60.�
Apr 24, 2013
nleggatt Thanks gg I appreciate the feedback!�
Apr 24, 2013
qphan79 Thanks SFOTurtle, I feel better knowing that fellow owners like you and gg can relate to my concerns. I try to be as knowledgable as I can before I started posting some random complaints. I think Tesla owners should support one another about legitimate concerns instead of immediately casting doubt onto those that do. Btw, I didnt say I never reached 180's but my range dropped to 187 within the first week. I thought that was normal because it was colder back on February and it was indeed a small variance at the time. But once it started to max out at 185 I became more concerned. Also, check out my picture I just took after getting home. Drove over 110 miles at an avg of 277 wh/mi. I still only have 70 miles of range left which totals 180 estimated to empty. At that energy use, I should easily be getting well over190 miles, right?
�
Apr 25, 2013
tdiggity Fwiw, tesla will call you back if they feel like it is an issue. To them, it's not an issue, so no call back. Not acceptable, but do know that they'd call back in other circumstances.
Pack balancing was mentioned a few posts back. Along those same lines, have you tried charging at a slower rate from <50% soc?�
Apr 25, 2013
bonnie 1) Tesla should return calls when they say they will return calls. If they're overloaded, don't commit. (I'd be lying if I said I hadn't personally experienced some issues in this area.)
2) Even if battery inspection isn't part of annual maintenance, if you have an unusual decrease in range, it will be investigated (just like any potential warranty issue). I'd first try a slow charge at 110, and let it sit a few days (if you can bear it). (I'm definitely NOT the battery expert on this forum by a long shot, but that advice worked for me.) You may find subsequent charges are fine after that.
3) Are you within distance of a service center? I'd just stop in, ask for the manager, make an appointment in person. They're experiencing some growing pains, again, it's inexcusable you haven't heard back. So do what you need to do to get it looked at if you really believe this is an issue. For all we know, they've already pulled the logs, are analyzing -- and just doing a crummy job of communicating.
4) Can't emphasize enough that they will want your battery if it is exhibiting unusual behavior. I had a battery pack pulled for that reason. Car was running fine, charging fine, just throwing weird error messages. The battery was replaced at no charge. I didn't ask for that to be done - the replacement was their decision. (documented in a blog Roadtrip: The Rest of the Story - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum)
- - - Updated - - -
I might also add that if you're going to be yelling at someone (not saying that YOU did, just anyone), make sure you're yelling at the right person. Some of Tesla folks are on the receiving end of an awful lot of unacceptable vitriol (I've heard stories that shocked me - people say some really unacceptable personally insulting things when they're not getting their way). And these are folks that don't have the responsibility for communication, etc.
All of us need to be better than that.
-end of public service announcement-?�
Apr 26, 2013
qphan79 Well I am definitely more at ease now that they are "guaranteeing" the battery! Elon is truly a man with vision! But I still hope the service department becomes better equipped to handle customer issues soon.�
Apr 26, 2013
hans Just don't open the battery pack to try and find the missing miles ;-)
I agree that they are showing growing pains in the customer service department. A live person calling you back on the phone with an short explanation on why you shouldn't worry about your observed loss of range would have made a huge difference.�
Apr 26, 2013
mcornwell As a reference point, after seeing 240-241 miles when new, my car, after 4 months and about 4600 miles, is at 237-238 when I check it in the morning, about 3 hours after it finishes charging. Maybe I'll spend an extra dime and set the charging to start after super-off peak ends (5AM) to see how much of that is vampire.�
Apr 26, 2013
kitk I'm at 4,000 miles and just recently dropped from hitting 240 at the end of a standard charge to now consistently stopping at 239. I've supercharged twice and never done a range charge. Took delivery back in December. At delivery I would frequently get up to 242 range on a standard charge.�
Apr 26, 2013
kvietor Just finished charging earlier this afternoon. 242 on a standard charge and I have 8200 miles on my S.
Next time I think I'll post a screen shot.�
Apr 26, 2013
carrerascott Just under 2 months and 2700 miles, I get 242 per charge still. (finished charging a while ago so it dropped to 241...)�
Apr 26, 2013
William13 242 miles after 8700 miles.�
Apr 26, 2013
tdiggity Lets hope tesla isn't pulling the HP ink toner can only print 8000 pages even though it has ink left thing.�
Apr 26, 2013
MikeC Still 242-243 at 4800 miles. Are the people seeing degradation doing deep discharges or anything else like that?�
Apr 26, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla The OP, qphan, does have a regular fairly-deep discharge routine. His daily roundtrip is 110 miles with no charging at work, I believe.�
Apr 26, 2013
mknox I have an approximate 100 mile daily roundtrip myself. I have access to charging at work, but don't always use it and even starting out with a Standard charge each morning, I don't think my battery has gone below the 50% mark yet (based on how far the green bar moves). I'm around 3,000 miles and still have 239-242 miles when I go out in the morning. I think the variance is due to the vampire losses depending on how long the car sat after charging finished. Lately, in the warmer weather, I've been under 300 Wh/mi on my commute and see projected numbers actually higher than rated.�
Apr 27, 2013
mcornwell As I mentioned, I seem to have lost about 4 miles over 4600 miles.
I've done 3 range charges, and have Supercharged 4 times. I don't have a commute, and and typically charge, then let it drop down to between 130-200 miles before plugging in (240V 40A), which might be every 2-3 days. I believe I've only had the range below 50 miles 4 times.�
Apr 27, 2013
Lloyd I believe the battery degradation curves I have seen show a 2 to 3 % loss over the first year then pretty linear at about 1/2 per cent every year following.�
Apr 27, 2013
abasile Noticed the comments above re. "deep discharges". You'd have to go below 10-20% to call it a deep discharge. I regularly go below 20% in my LEAF, but with its limited range, it's hard for me not to! 100-150 daily miles in an 'S' will not give you a deep discharge!
As others have mentioned, do expect capacity loss to be greater up front and taper off with time. This is consistent with my LEAF experience. I'm at 33K miles, mostly up and down mountains, and after more than two years of ownership have about 8% reported loss. But then again, the LEAF has no battery thermal management and the battery degrades faster when hot. You don't have to worry about that with a Tesla.
It's not worth getting worked up over a few reported miles of loss. Give it another year or two and see how it goes.�
Apr 27, 2013
EchoDelta I wonder why they display "243" miles instead of "approximately 240". 3 significant figures are more precise than accurate, and like the post of the leaf owner said, tracking a Guess o Meter obsessively can ruin your experience.
Feels like trying to guess the health of a hard drive by looking at the estimate of time left to copy a bunch of files...
If on the other hand you are a data wonk dump the API variables with weather and route info into a table and analyze away.
One could build a simple web app that gets these data dumps and over months/years calculates deviance from expected or from the herd to give you a battery pack early warning it may be fun, but im sure tesla's telemetry team does this already proactively or on demand; and has access to relevant info not exposed in the public API.
X1188. Sorry if this is terse, sent from my phone.�
Apr 28, 2013
William3 Loss of range isn't covered.�
Apr 29, 2013
bonnie Normal degradation isn't covered. However, degradation due to a battery problem would be covered. They've never tried to play word games on that with the Roadster and I doubt they'll start now.�
Apr 30, 2013
kitk Since posting earlier in this thread my standard charge has now dropped to a max of 238 rated miles instead of the 239 I was seeing a week ago. Never have even done a range charge, ~4k miles.�
Apr 30, 2013
johnmodels 3500 miles, about 3 months old. Maybe lost 1 mile of range. Normal charge is 241. One range charge so far, no supercharging yet.
john�
Apr 30, 2013
Kaivball 2,200 miles.
242 miles at charge.
No super charger, no range charge.�
Apr 30, 2013
Zextraterrestrial 8478 miles - ~ 2 supercharges , 3 times hit <4 miles / 3 times @ charge now. std @ 242-243 miles(239 set) range at 269-270 (265 set?)
1 auto cross - 1 drag event
5 months�
May 2, 2013
scriptacus 3,800 miles v4.4
371 Avg. Wh/m
237 miles at standard (down from 241-242)
6 super charges (3 were short ones between Fremont and SoCal the day I picked up the car, 2 more a few weeks apart for less than 25 minutes each), 1 range charge.
Charging on a 30A Blink Level 2 charger every night for ~21mph.
Driving M-F usually takes takes about 30-40 miles rated range per day (237 down to ~200).
Driving Sat-Sun usually takes about 80-140 miles rated range per day. (237 down to ~157-97).
I find rate at which my standard charge is declining disturbing. My standard charge used to be 241-242. There were two times in the past that I drove the car down to ~30 miles rated range left. The interesting thing at the time was that after these two instances my standard charge went up to 244. Since I've started maxing out at 237 for the past week or so I decided to experiment. I drove the car without charging this week, down to ~30 miles left, and then did a full supercharge cycle. I ended up at 237 again, so it would appear that the post low SOC boost of those past charges is no more.�
May 3, 2013
johnmodels update-
Just checked this morning and I'm still at 242 on a standard charge with 3000+ miles.
john�
May 4, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla I'm down to 185 consistently; the following are when charging from a 14-50 at home and I see the same when topping off at work from a 110V outlet:
Zero max charges and supercharges thus far. Weather has gotten a lot warmer here though.�
May 4, 2013
rlawson4 I was at 239-241 on a standard charge. I am now 236-237. I am only concerned because I have been given different answers by different people. I have 11,100 miles. No supercharges and 3 range charges. I do drive some days 200 plus miles. So, I have had many deep battery discharges.
�
May 4, 2013
Todd Burch Most people here are reporting about a 2% capacity loss after 10,000 miles. If degredation were linear (it's not) that would be 20% over 100,000 miles. Since the degredation rate slows considerably after the first cycles, that seems in line with a ~10-15% loss over 100,000 miles. Doesn't that pretty much match up with what Tesla's saying? I think the issue is just that degredation rate is fastest initially.
Also, not everything is actual degredation. Could be a function of the range algorithm, pack imbalance, charge rate, depth of discharge, etc.�
May 4, 2013
vfx Which is exactly the same as my 50,000 miled Roadster.
And the OP, When overloaded, the decisions form Tesla service are clearly mission critical first. Cars that are immovable for whatever reason get first priority. Owners who want squeaker fixed or a P85 badge are asked to wait. While a battery loss is a much bigger deal, missing a few miles of range may be a less of a fire to be extinguished.�
May 4, 2013
kitk On April 26th I posted on this thread. Standard charge stopped at 239 miles. April 30th I started to max out at 238 miles. Now on May 4th I am maxing out at 237 miles immediately at the end of a standard charge. I sure hope this doesn't continue at a linear rate. It has been warmer this week here in San Diego.
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May 4, 2013
mdh Having owned another EV, in the past, ambient temperatures can have a temporary impact. Not sure if the tesla creates a larger buffer during warm periods like the Leaf.�
May 5, 2013
Benz The Tesla Model S with an 85 kWh battery pack comes with a 8 years and unlimited miles warranty.
Normal degredation isn't covered. This is very much acceptabel for most of us, as it's very logical that this (degredation of the capacity of the battery pack) will happen as time goes by and as the EV is driven for a certain number of miles.
First of all, to what extent should we consider "degredation of the capacity of the battery pack" as being normal?
To answer this question I would like to mention the following. Last year, in November or December, I remember having read on the Tesla Motors website, on the SPECS or FACTS webpage, that the battery capacity after 8 years would be about 70%. Meaning that there would be a "degredation of the capacity of the battery pack" of about 30%. But later on, early 2013, I saw that they had removed this information from the website. Has anyone else noticed this amendment as well?
If that's what (30% degredation of the capacity of the battery pack after 8 years) Tesla Motors expects, than that should be considered as being normal.�
May 5, 2013
drees Also keep in mind that new batteries lose capacity faster than old batteries, so if you treat the car the same for all 8 years, you will see the most capacity loss in year 1.�
May 5, 2013
brianman It will be interesting to see if the battery degradation curve looks a lot like the new (ICE) car depreciation curve.�
May 5, 2013
Benz My focus is purely on degredation of the capacity of the 85 kWh battery pack of the Tesla Model S.
I am not interested in any ICE vehicle any more.�
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