May 8, 2015
MaxK My X pectation for the Model X is that is will be as good as other luxury automobiles / CUVs / SUVs in every way. The Model S was playing catch-up in luxury features for the first 2 years and is still behind in some luxury features (of course way ahead in many others and a wonderful car overall). My expectation is that I am not the equivalent of a Model S buyer in October 2014 only to have P85D come out a month later. I know, cars are always improving and blah blah blah. As I long as I have waited for my Signature X, I expect it to equal other luxury automobiles in nearly all areas and exceed them in many others. This is not unreasonable to expect from a $125,000 automobile.
I would be interested to know how my expectations for the X compare to your own expectations. The following is not a wish list or a list that Tesla could act upon at this late stage, but rather a list of available technologies and features that I expect the car to offer. The software to operate these may download later, but the hardware needs to be present at the time of delivery. (Some of these are already offered in the S):
Hands free driving on Highways � full sensor suite installed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i-t0C7RQWM
Rear view camera on rear view mirror
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRTLEuly9ek
Around View monitor similar or better than Infiniti's (360 degree top view)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JwJj6BlpJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM5OI_S7LfA
Recording of the Around View monitor (ie 360 degree dash cam recording)
Night-vision systems, like the BMW and Mercedes systems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31KQWMU_8sE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DojthARCO6k
Full automatic braking � forward - for cars and pedestrian detection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voz4dosVGSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7BttPpXvU
Full automatic braking � reverse - for cars, pedestrian and object detection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeOhfaVoud0
Adaptive cruise control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=own_VaRZ9M8
Lane departure warning and Automatic lane maintenance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtVe1Pnayg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSzEi8dlFIc
Blind spot warning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYActaJsOEw
Automatic park assist with remote operation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYPby2ALLnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjcpxMnKkfg
Automatic high beam control with shading
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL9x8oI8MQw
Adaptive headlights � curve into turn (active bending headlights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ynhhrR0egQ
Side view mirror cameras pre-installed allowing mirror removal upon approval
P version available with low 3 second 0-60 times
4G LTE
Perfect crash rating
250 mile minimum EPA rating for the P version
92+ kwH battery (battery chemistry better than the current 2009 chemistry)
Heated and Cooled seats
2nd row luxury / executive seating
Great internal storage and cup holders
Towing up to 4,500 lbs�
May 8, 2015
spentan Looks good.
In for all of these�
May 8, 2015
JohnSnowNW My expectations are simple:
1. Same safety accolades as Model S
2. 230 real world miles
3. Comparable features to Model S
That's it.�
May 8, 2015
DrGuest +100 on this. Deer, elk, moose really make driving at night a stressful experience. I really want night vision. Here is a company called Nav.tv that installs aftermarket FLIR systems, but I would have to add another monitor below my 17" Screen, which would be a bit much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7box0EU_9Cs
Night-vision systems, like the BMW and Mercedes systems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31KQWMU_8sE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DojthARCO6k�
May 8, 2015
Blastphemy These are the ones I would at least expect a $100k+ car to have since many $50-75k cars already do.
We already know the Model X will have AutoPilot, so Adaptive Cruise Control and Blind-Spot Warning are assured.
I know cooled seats supposedly decrease range a bit, but I don't care! I WANT IT! It's too hot out here to own a car without it.�
May 8, 2015
bonnie I'm always curious when I see these lists of expectations compiled against what is available on other cars, if people would compile lists for THOSE cars saying 'able to accelerate like a bat outta hell', 'always full every morning when I go to the garage', 'manufacturer puts free fueling stations across the continent for my use', 'no more oil changes', etc.
Yes, I'd love all this stuff too. But I want what it will have even more. It's not lacking if something here is missing. Maybe the other cars are lacking because they don't have what this one has.
Perspective.�
May 8, 2015
MaxK Bonnie, your reply reminds me of an old story (paraphrasing below):
A guy approaches a woman in a bar and offers her $1,000,000 to spend the night with him. She ponders his offer and decides that she would do that for $1,000,000. He then replies, Would you spend the night with me for $100? She replies, NO!, what do you think I am, a prostitute. He replies, We have already determined that, now we are just negotiating the price.
You seem to object, 'are curious' to a list of expectations, but then go on to list your own expectations for the car. I profer that you are already an Expectationer, we are just discussing what those expectations are. Yours include:
100% electric (you expect Tesla to not install a range extending gas engine in the Model X). [no oil changes & always full]
Sub 6 second 0-60 times ['able to accelerate like a bat outta hell']
Supercharging included at no cost [free fueling stations]
Probably others, such as a battery larger than 10KwH. etc etc etc�
May 8, 2015
bonnie I think you missed my point completely. Completely. Since you did, I'll explain. People seem to list what they must have on the Model S or Model X and rationalize it by saying 'because other cars in this price range have these things'. Yet when they talk about those cars, they don't demand what some cars in that price range (Teslas) have.
It's not about my expectations. It's about shopping for the car that fits YOUR needs. It does not matter what other cars have. It matters if the car YOU buy has what YOU want.
But thanks for comparing me to a prostitute.
�
May 8, 2015
timf My expectations start with the current Model S and add what we know about Model X.
Reasonable Expectations
- All features available on Model S except opening panoramic roof.
- Fixed glass roof extending over driver's seat and upper panels of falcon wing doors.
- Same battery and performance options as Model S D. No bigger batteries in the first year.
- 10% less range than comparable Model S.
- Acceleration times within 10% of comparable Model S.
- Towing capability is optional (may require P85D) and is not a consideration for me.
- Improved interior with additional cup holders and storage spaces, but still minimalistic compared to other vehicles.
- New paint colors and interior decor options not currently available on Model S.
- LTE and other CPU hardware enhancements
Hopeful but not counting on it
- Around view camera
- Ventilated seat option
- Electronic tinting for overhead glass
- Indicator on side mirrors for blind spot warning
- Dark brown seating option
Not expecting in any way
- Cameras replacing side mirrors (now or as a retrofit) or rear view mirror
- Night vision
- Head up display
- Adaptive high beams (not even legal in the U.S.)
- Built-in dash cam recording capability�
May 8, 2015
MaxK Bonnie, you miss the point. I reserved the Tesla, therefore it is a given that I value what Tesla has and the other cars do not. If I was buying one of those cars, I would want it to be as good as the Tesla, but I am not. I am buying the Tesla and want it to be as good as they are in a number of areas. Not unreasonable. And yes, I am entitled to my expectations. Will I be disappointed on one or two of these, maybe (I hope not too many), but I will also probably be pleasantly surprised on a few features.
There is an information vacuum related to the Model X. Since Tesla has yet to announce features and may not right up to delivery, then it is difficult to do as you say: "It's about shopping for the car that fits YOUR needs. It does not matter what other cars have. It matters if the car YOU buy has what YOU want". It is human nature to attempt to fill the information void. Some of us enjoy the experience, others do not. If you don't, then stay out of a thread relating to expectations or speculation etc.
But please, do not tell me how to buy a car, what to expect in a car, what to speculate about based upon mule photos and how to think, feel and live my life. You have a record of doing so on this forum!
No I was not calling you a prostitute, just a hyprocrite.�
May 8, 2015
JohnSnowNW You do realize her initial comment wasn't specifically targeted at you, nor was her point how *you* should feel about it. It was commentary on these types of threads, and her take.
You may need to lighten up a bit.�
May 8, 2015
CmdrThor If each and every one of these expectations is not met, will you be canceling your signature reservation?�
May 8, 2015
AnxietyRanger Great topic, thank you all for contributing different views.
To share mine, I think premium ICEs and Teslas have one thing in common, both are missing "expectations" due to inherent limitations of their platforms:
- ICEs are not having or getting e.g. free gasoline above due to the limitations of the ICE
- EVs won't get some features anytime soon due to limitations of the EV, no super-fast topping up, no 500+ mile range, less infra
Neither are about to change anytime soon. Eventually EVs of course can fix some of those. But the main difference is, Tesla cars are in addition to this missing many of the convenience features of above due to being a small/new manufacturer and simply not having "gotten there yet", a limitation not shared by their ICE competitors. Hence I'd say the expectations on Tesla are a bit different. Tesla can actually be expected to fix many missing things faster as they mature, because their limit on some issues is not inherent to the platform.
Many of the auto-pilot "2" features seem plausible if DRIVE PX is on-board from the get-go. Very good and complete list in the first post, I think. I'll add some convenience features I'd like to see, in addition to the ones above, based on German premiums:
- HUD
- 4+ zone AC
- Open trunk by "kicking" under the car
- Cooled/heated cup holders
- Multi-program massaging seats (w/ indirect ventilation)
- Ability to move passenger seats from driver's, front passenger seat from rear
- Electric shades in rear side, back as well as all sky windows
- Rear-seat touch screens (not just entertainment but actual control, see camera views, control navi etc.)
- Rear-seat fridge with Tesla engraved cooled glasses inside
- Flag poles, how can you not have factory-option flag poles! American Dummkopfs
OK, so maybe I've been spoiled by German option lists a little. To compromise, I can do without the trunk kick option. Must have flag poles, though, otherwise I'll cancel my reservation for sure. Well, maybe I could swap that requirement for exterior wood paneling. Maybe.�
May 8, 2015
mikevbf Thanks Bonnie. I have not laughed so hard in months.�
May 8, 2015
MaxK Of course not. If none of them were met, probably, but I am confident that will not be the case. All reservation holders have some expectations for the car. I have expectations for the performance of my companies, my employees and even my kids. Not all of my expectations are met, as I tend to set the bar high, however I am also often pleasantly surprised on things that I did not expect.�
May 8, 2015
AnxietyRanger Moving on from wants and wishes, to what I think we've seen on the mules:
- There is evidence of no rear view mirror, instead DRIVE PX or the like with perhaps 10-12 cameras
- There is some speculation that the rear window might have an adaptive spoiler, for those who like such things
- I wonder if the nose cone is gone
- Perhaps not quite Q7, but still cross-over Audi Allroad like ground clearance
- A two inch hitch for you in the U.S., likely the equivalent for Europe etc.
- Model S like front interior without a protruding dash screen, also mostly glass ceiling, no bar between A pillars
- High-up side cameras and all around views
- Active lane keeping testing assumed to have been seen on the mules
- Not seen on mules, but based on other info some solution for carrying skis
Now, of course, we don't know what if anything these mean for production versions or if these spyings of mules are in any way accurate.�
May 8, 2015
MaxK I was surprised how many of the auto-pilot "2" features were available from Bosch without the need for DRIVE PX. Based upon the videos, I would speculate that there is a lot of Bosch technology already in the S and the X. For example, the Automatic Lane Maintenance feature seems to be what the X mule was testing recently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtVe1Pnayg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDYFIGLbiZ4�
May 8, 2015
AnxietyRanger True. For automatic lane maintenance you don't really need anymore than the top front camera (like on Auto-Pilot and so many other cars for years already) and whatever you need for steering/braking etc., although Model X might be using front bumper cameras as well. Of course more sensors would give better situational awareness like radars seeing other cars behind, on the sides, front...�
May 8, 2015
bonnie Well that escalated quickly.
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I'm going to attempt to explain, once again, since wow. Things appear to have been taken in the worst possible light.
If we were to make a list of all the features of every car in a certain price range ... this manufacturer offers this tech, this other one offers these paint colors, this one offers this service package .. there is NO way we're going to be happy with whatever a particular manufacturer offers.
That's ALL I was saying. But wow. Way to go for the personal attack. Just shaking my head.
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Make lists as long as you want about what you want in a car. My point, again, was it is unfair to say that Manufacturer A should offer this because Manufacturer B offers it - while ignoring the unique features that Manufacturer A is offering. It was the rationale that I was commenting upon. Sorry you couldn't see that.
And thanks John. And thanks to the nice tidal wave of positive rep�
May 8, 2015
MaxK How is it unfair to compare to features that Manufacturer A should offer to those offered by Manufacturer B(and in my many cases C, D, E & F)? That is what car buyers do everyday.
That comparison does not ignore the unique features of the Tesla, nor does it ignore the unique weaknesses of the Tesla (yes there are also unique weaknesses of the Tesla compared to other ICE luxury autos).
Just because the Tesla is a real cool electric car that does 0-60 like nothing else, does not give it a pass on matching and exceeding other features that luxury car buyers might want / expect / be offered from competitors.
I believe Tesla is an amazing company and believe much of this will be in the car. I also believe that after a much delayed 2 year wait and a $125,000 price tag, I am not unjust in expecting a luxury car to be competitive with other luxury cars - feature to feature. The unique benefits are the reason I reserved it in the first place and I decided I could overcome the unique weaknesses as well.�
May 8, 2015
AnxietyRanger You are not alone there.
That said, you can't win the argument here.�
May 8, 2015
Earlian Please,Tesla if you read this expectations, just ignore it.
The Model X will be great and at this point of the timetable, I don't want anything to be changed, because I want the model X now and not be modified forever!
Please just deliver...
I know I don't waited as long as others had here, but it's also over a year, knowing Europe will take till '16, that made me suffer long enough. And I think there are a bunch of people in that reservation line, that don't want to wait longer just for some other feature.
Sorry, I feel for the wishes and expectation everyone has, but the time window for new hardware hopefully closed a while ago.�
May 8, 2015
DieAbetic While my car was at the shop fixing the front bumper (accident), I was given a Buick Lacrosse with all the tech goodies on it (lane departure, ACC, collision avoidance, etc, etc).
I must say I really liked the HUD and the air-cooled seats, especially with the recent heat wave here in Southern California. I'd love it if my Tesla had both of those.�
May 8, 2015
Gwgan I�d like manual crank-handle windows. You know, for help with the range since they won�t drain the battery.�
May 8, 2015
timf I will add to my expectations that it will NOT feature DRIVE PX, primarily because the system is far too new to throw into a production vehicle. I know Tesla likes to take the hardware first, software later approach, but with DRIVE PX just being made available to manufacturers this month, it's far too late in Model X development to add it to the initial production version. They have to have locked in the electronics configuration long ago.�
May 8, 2015
favo From Car Safety IPO Mobileye Ties Future To Tesla, Others:
�
May 8, 2015
AnOutsider "speeds up to around 40 miles per hour" and "on the highway" seem incompatible.�
May 8, 2015
favo Probably meant 40+ mph.�
May 8, 2015
scottf200 I totally get MaxK's point. Ignore the drivetrain -- normal driving highend luxury cars are smooth and quiet, and reasonable powerful for normal use acceleration. So ignoring drivetrain .... COMPARE features of luxury high 5 or very low 6 digit vehicles.�
May 8, 2015
Blastphemy I gotta agree with MaxK. If Tesla wants to play in the big boy arena, it needs to offer features all the other $100k cars are offering. Most of those $100k cars are also able to accelerate very quickly. Many offer hybrid drivetrains for better mileage. Some newer ones even offer plug-in charging and all-EV driving for shorter trips. And all of them have most or all of the expected features listed above by the OP. Heck, cars half the price offer most of those features! So how can one justify buying a $100-125k car that's missing features found in a Buick? I don't care how fast a Model X accelerates or whether it can drive 300 miles between charges; I want a car that's comfortable, safe, has cooled front seats, has blind-spot warning, and has around-view cameras. If that means buying a Cadillac plug-in CT6 or ELR and saving $50k instead of a Tesla Model S/X, then so be it. I can live with filling up the gas tank four times per year like I current do, and still get mostly all-EV driving...but with no range anxiety. Or I guess I could buy the forthcoming Mercedes-Benz S550 plug-in, but then you're talking about a similar price with very limited EV-only driving, so in that case I'd choose Model X even though it might be missing some newer features.
If the $100k+ Model X didn't come with Adaptive Cruise Control (which it does, thankfully - AutoPilot), I for sure would cancel it. No cooled/ventilated front seats? Cancelled, since I can get that plus ACC on a $42k car with 0-60 in 6 seconds. Significant road noise encroaching into the cabin? Cancelled. No around-view monitor? Well... I'd have to think about that, but I'd probably keep the reservation.�
May 8, 2015
ohmman I'd argue that ignoring the drivetrain is equivalent to ignoring "luxury feature X". For some of us, the drivetrain is the most important feature. I understand that's not the case for everyone, but it's valuable to understand this point of view.�
May 8, 2015
dsm363 I don't see how you can ignore the drivetrain. You'd never present someone with a 5 series BMW and so 'oh, and it has a state of the art 140hp inline 4 cylinder engine'. Sure, compare the luxury features but no one car can have everything.�
May 8, 2015
mibaro2 ROFLMAO.
Thanks for ending my day on a laugh.�
May 8, 2015
MaxK The drivetrain is the reason I reserved the X and the reason that I almost did not. With it's benefits also come some negatives. In the end, I believed the balance tipped more towards the benefits.
However, that equation is not the same for all customers and certainly not for all markets. China is probably an example of a market where the Model S is lacking compared to other luxury autos and the drivetrain is viewed as a negative rather than a positive. Thus the poor sales performance. I expect Tesla has learned from that experience and is one reason why the 2nd row seating is such a priority in the X development.�
May 8, 2015
JohnSnowNW In the end you are buying an EV from a company with far fewer production vehicles than the competition. Comparing features with other luxury vehicles/makes is silly without consideration for costs that the other vehicles/manufacturers don't have.
First and foremost you are paying for an EV drive-train, and to a lesser extent exclusivity (whether this is important to you or not). Expecting to pay the same amount as similarly equipped luxury ICE vehicles doesn't seem practical.�
May 8, 2015
Dutchie I just cann't understand why people are always comparing a Tesla with other $100+K cars. As everyone knows the drivetrain of a Tesla is much more expensive than the drivetrain of an ICE. This leaves less money for other luxury items found in similar priced ICE cars, without compromising a healthy profit. You are, however, buying a new and superior technology and in the mean time investing in the future. Profits mad on the X and the S are used for the development of the Model 3.�
May 8, 2015
MaxK I predict to pay a 30% premium over a similar ICE luxury auto. Many of the features listed as expectations are offered on cars at 1/2 the price of the Sig X (projected). I am ok with a 30 to 100% premium, however I would like it be feature comparable at that price premium.�
May 8, 2015
felixtb you are probably right but probably for the wrong reasoning. in china it would be more indirectly the drivetrain and the blue eyed beginners way of entering a complicated market. the low acceptance in china is mostly due to local red tape and miss conceptions by building managements. TESLA believed that getting government with them on infrastructure should have given them a short cut to charging infrastructure. the problem is that the local authorities and often building managements will not allow high power outlets in the parking garages so..... if you can't charge in the convenience of your home or office and is forced to go to a supercharger outside the city (could be a good hour of driving in traffic) then the allure of going green with a car is quickly fading. and no plush back seat can change that.
however back to this thread. it seems the problems between different points of view on this thread are more down to semantics in the heading of the thread. since it is called expectations it is not wishes but what you expect the car to have when you can fulfill your order, or you will not. on the other hand if it is a wish list then your order will stand but you might be left wishing for more of the luxury goodies offered by the car(s) that you forgo by this purchase..... in the end one has to be satisfied with the choice at hand, otherwise there is no point for purchase, wether it's 10'000 100'000 or 1'000'000........�
May 8, 2015
vandacca I disagree. The Tesla drive train is actually cheaper than ICE vehicles. The Electric motor is much more simple than than an ICE plus all the extra support infrastructure to keep it running (oil lines, exhaust lines, cooling lines, etc.). And there are already threads out there that indicate that the batteries are much cheaper than most people suspect. The main reasons why Tesla is so expensive is the R&D, low volume productions and because they have (or will eventually have) very high margins.
The actual reason why the Model-S was lacking high-end luxury features is because Tesla is a new company and its going to take them time to implement each and every one of these luxury features. Over time, they'll eventually catch up and will likely surpass everyone else. It's very similar to the very first iPhone that didn't even have cut&paste or the ability to send MMS messages. It just took time for Apple to get around to adding these features and getting it right in the process. Tesla wouldn't be around today if they waited until they had every single luxury item in the very first car they sold.�
May 8, 2015
JohnSnowNW I don't necessarily agree with this. Having something be simpler doesn't necessarily make it cheaper, and vice versa. Fairly certain a 2-cycle gas engine is more complex and cheaper than a Model S motor, for instance. It's not like the Model S only has a battery and 1 or 2 motors. I would find it difficult to believe that the drivetrain of an M5/6 is more expensive than the Model S (including battery). I could be wrong, however.�
May 8, 2015
vandacca JohnSnowNW, don't take my word for it, go look for it online. The Tesla motor is under $1000, and might be slightly over $1000 if you include all the support electronics. An ICE engine will likely run $5000-$9000. And that doesn't include the muffler system, radiator, oil lines, gas lines, etc. A Model-S is significantly more simple and cheaper to build than any ICE vehicle. And it should be cheaper and more simple to maintain too!
Also, there have already been many articles written about battery packs being cheaper than people's expectations. The numbers being thrown about is $144 kWh. That would mean that a 85kWh battery pack would cost just over $12,000. And that's retail price! Wholesale would be much cheaper still.�
May 8, 2015
MikeL Does it turn a crank pushing pistons in sleeves burning oil? Then it's a crappy cobbling together of 19th century technologies, and I won't be buying it regardless of the type of seat ventilation and other driver assist crutches that make one believe, appearantly, that they have bought something fancy when it's just a cushier version of the same old junk. Tesla drivetrain has ONE moving part. Oops, 2 now, I guess :biggrin: ICE powered have hundreds plus the massive ancillary support system of fuel delivery, cooling, electrical, & exhaust that really just make it one big sad joke. Have I made myself clear?! Ha!�
May 9, 2015
AnxietyRanger Well, that *too* comes down to perspective.
BMW makes big hay about its state of the art in-line 4 diesel for the 5 Series in Europe getting under 120 g/km CO2 (or somesuch number), which is important for company car policies (and taxes) in Europe.
The engine has 150 horsepower.
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Agreed. This is the reason. And nothing stops Tesla from upping to price for those extra features by making them optional, so hopefully eventually they will catch up - and that eventually hopefully is at Model X launch for most part, because I'm not sure ordering a Model X that's basically P85D Auto-pilot with Falcon Wings and a plusher second row is very enticing... What most us want is the possibility to get somewhat of a feature equivalency, not necessarily arguing for price equivalency (even though you make some nice points about the actual cost too).
Personally, I don't need the Model X to have everything my past Germans have had, but considering I already have the Classic Model S where I made significant concessions to jump on board of EV thing, features-wise, I am hoping for significant advances still compared to the current Model S - making those concessions for a second time does not sound so inviting.
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I don't think people are arguing for price equivalency, but that vehicles in a certain class (I understand Model S tries to compete with at least the 5 Series of this world, if not 7 Series) can be expected to have certain features. Make them priced optional extras, if you must, I doubt that is an issue for many - for example myself in Europe have gotten used to paying through my teeth for the options list where everything basically is optional.
Reading Gwgan's comment, it actually wasn't that long ago when electric rear windows and air-conditioning were extra cost options in some German premiums (granted, not on the 7 Series level).
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China is a good question. But equally any very densely populated urban area consisting mostly of apartment buildings and parking on the street or in various public or private garages of many kinds.
A lot of the people on this forum come from places where they live in separate houses of their own, most probably even have garages, but at least some fairly accessible and rudimentary way of charging nightly - even if it means taking the extension cord from the bathroom to the car on their driveway. Even 240V or somesuch will be enough, if you commute relatively short distances - you don't even have to plug-in every night. And of course when you own your house, your chances of being able to install faster chargers are high. People with their own yard and house have many options when it comes to EVs, if they come back to that house every night.
But all this changes when you talk of apartment buildings, let alone the kind, type and density they have in Asia. Your house may not have a dedicated parking garage - or if you do, it might even be a robot that stacks cars on top of each other, or some other location where installations are not easy or practical, for example you may not have a dedicated spot. You may have to park in some pay-per-month garage some blocks from your home where you can't hope to install anything anyway. Some who live in apartments, park on the street wherever they can find a free place that night.
Now, in addition to that, China of course has some very unique requirements when it comes to cars. They prefer extended-wheelbase cars with rear amenities so much that German premiums like Audi and BMW actually make unique "L" versions of even smaller premiums for China, with special executive rear seat options, because so many Chinese - even those who buy a smaller premium car - are chauffeured. This is of course why there is the executive back seat option for Model S, but it is still quite a small convenience compared to the stretched, rear-seat entertained, seat-ventilated, massaged options of the Germans.
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While it is possible DRIVE PX won't make it to the first Model X vehicles - and might come, say a year later, if it is coming at all - I'm not sure your reasoning would necessarily be correct, though.
If Tesla is a key nVidia partner, it doesn't seem far-fetched the DRIVE PX might even have been developed hand in hand with the Model X and Tesla might have priority access. It might even be one reason for Model X's delayed launch schedule (once they decided not to launch it with D and Auto-pilot last year). Even the launch timing seems so suspicious, how much of a chance it is that Elon Musk was *at* the DRIVE PX launch discussing Model X and the final DRIVE PX is being released to manufacturers the same exact time Tesla is saying having started to build release-candidates of Model X... If DRIVE PX was developed alongside the Model X, and it is now ready for others too, having it ready for manufacturing come late Q3 sounds perfectly possible.
Of course, all this assumes Tesla collaborated on the DRIVE PX and had priority access - and are not just now ordering samples from nVidia. Tesla may not even be the only car maker to have had beta-access to DRIVE PX. Beta Model X's may have been built with beta DRIVE PX's and now that DRIVE PX is done, Tesla is building release candidates around it.
Then again, the latest conference call suggested not to expect too much of a difference between first Model X and current Model S, if I read correctly somewhere. Was this just said to not Osbourne the Model X or because the first Model X's will miss out on "Auto-pilot 2", it is hard to say.�
May 9, 2015
mnx I've got 5 kids... I just want room for my family and all their stuff. I'm hoping the X has at least 40 cu ft behind the 3rd row (that's about what our sienna has). If the X ends up being less practical than our van it will be no X for me as I wouldn't want to replace my P85 with a Model X.�
May 9, 2015
JohnSnowNW Fine, but that's speculation. Even if they have it down to $144/kWh, which I think is closer to $180/kWh, you still have the cost of the pack management equipment. I can't argue the point of the motors being around $1000...but that seems pretty low to me...regardless of the simplicity. Even in your example we're looking at $14,000 (I'll just stick to the retail amount you've mentioned because I believe the price is higher) for the cost of the batteries and motor, without the other drivetrain equipment.
As for the ICE, exhaust, radiators, oil and gas lines, etc... are relatively inexpensive. From what I've gleaned ICE engines cost around $5/hp...so that would make an M5 engine around $3k.
I'm not an expert, but I just think you're being a bit conservative on the cost of an EV, and the opposite for ICE.�
May 9, 2015
Krugerrand That pretty much sums it up. And so here's what I say to that: We're talking about Tesla. I shouldn't have to say any more than that, but for those who are new or slow to pick up on the Tesla trend: Tesla has always and likely will always be different. They are changing the automotive industry, therefore what one currently expects in a vehicle of a specific segment isn't necessarily what you'll find with Tesla or what you're going to find in the future. (Hello, cupholders anyone?) If you're stuck in a box of expectations, or have closed your mind to what is possible or what is, then this is probably not the company or vehicle for you. You'll just have to wait for those traditional OEMS to produce their version of an SUV/CUV EV.
One could just as easily say now, 'When I buy a car out of the luxury segment I expect instant torque. I don't want it to take all day long to get up to speed. I also expect regular OTA updates that refresh my vehicle, advance it, and make it more than it was when I bought it and I expect those updates to be free and done at my convenience. And I really expect to be able to fill up in my own garage at night, or in the parking lot where I work, or, or, or.' And in 2017, 'When I spend 35k+ on a car I expect (what I just typed).' That's the flip side that Bonnie and others have been expressing.
So again, if you're expecting your 100k+ Model X to come with disco lights, a fish tank...prepare to be disappointed. Know, though, that your reservation cancellation is going to make someone at the end of the line a happy camper, so it's all good.�
May 9, 2015
Merrill Completely agree, everyone keeps comparing Tesla to all other traditional car manufactures and if that is what you want then do not buy a Tesla. It's a different car company and do not forget it is still a start-up, and yes they have problems in many areas but eventually will get those resolved. As I have said before I work for those car dealerships for my career, Mercedes, Volvo, Nissan and was responsible for Parts and Service. I do not have room to go into all the problems we had with these cars over the years so they are not perfect either.�
May 9, 2015
Anzir An M5 motor costs over $15k... Don't ask how I know.�
May 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I own and operate a very basic car (8th Generation 2011 Honda Civic sedan), so my perspective on "must have" lists is perhaps a bit different than many here. My car has no sensors, no auto-adjust headlights, and no cameras. All I've got is fairly good road visibility through the window glass, and I've never felt that a ton of sensors would have helped. Then again, my car is much smaller than a Model S or X, and has minimal blind spots (driver's side A-pilar during a left turn is the only minor impediment).
I think that the spec sheet feature list is far less important than having everything work in a user-friendly manner. Having all the sensors, cameras, and other gadgets doesn't mean much if they overload the driver with data and Nagging Nora alerts. Does the feature actually add value, or is it a gimmick?
I believe, therefore, that prospective Model X buyers should rely on their own test drives and actual product reviews (from early adopters and/or car magazines) to make their decision, rather than outright refusing to consider a purchase due to lack of X, Y, or Z feature.�
May 9, 2015
JohnSnowNW Ha, well, that's the cost to the consumer...not BMW.�
May 9, 2015
Gerasimental You may need to get out more�
May 9, 2015
mkjayakumar If you are not blown away by the electric drive train, the zippiness, the total control of where you want your vehicle to be in traffic situations, the ability to fuel at home, the quietness - then Model S is not for you. To me everything else is fluff.
It is the same reason I believe Model S is popular in the US, but not in China. IMHO Chinese owners who sit in the rear seat and have a driver to chauffeur around and presumably have the car always topped off by the driver, will end up nitpicking rear seats, leather quality, rear DVD players, absence of 4 way climate control and such�
May 9, 2015
trialcritic There is nothing wrong in expecting features available in other manufacturers. If I remember, the Model S did not have cruise control in the beginning and many reviewers complained. After all, it is close to $100k in price, why not have such expectations. Eventually, Tesla came out with it and surpassed other manufacturers. Similarly other car makers are playing catch up. I remember why I said that I wanted a 400 mile range, the reason being that my wife goes on a yoga training in a part of California that does not have superchargers and is nervous about it. Many people in this forum said that you do not need it, individual needs are different. The minute another manufacturer comes out with an electric car with a range over 300 miles (Audi said that it will, wonder when), Tesla will do the same. After car making is a competition and companies left behind will face the wrath of the customers.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK There are two very distinct perspectives in this thread. I am going to take heat for this in a Tesla forum, but here goes. (Keep in mind that I reserved a Sig Model X):
Camp 1: I will label this the 'Tesla Fanboy Camp'. This camp seems to believe that because the car is electric, all else is to be forgiven. Tesla is a new innovative company with the best electric car, therefore nothing can be compared to them. They rightfully point out that the S has exceptional torque and accelerates like nothing else. The S has very few moving parts and requires far less maintenance. The cost to fuel the car is far less than other luxury cars. The car fuels itself while you sleep, so no trips to a gas station. They believe nothing compares to the Tesla because they are saving the planet by driving electric rather than dirty planet death causing ICE luxury autos. With the drivetrain benefits, also comes some negatives that this group fails to mention (maybe even fails to recognize due to Fanboy Blindness). The drivetrain benefits come at a pretty high price premium compared to other high end luxury autos (not exact comparison because no other ICE has this level of torque, but premium is still present). The drivetrain also still comes with some limitations regarding long distance travel. As of today, a trip from Florida to Ohio would require a very inefficient route using superchargers. At a minimum, any travel out of town requires far more planning than with any other luxury auto. The future will be different as the supercharger network is built out, but today is reality. This group fails to recognize that the interior of the S as well as the options offered was especially lacking prior to Fall 2014 and is still somewhat deficient as compared to other luxury autos.
Camp 2: I will label this the "Realist Camp'. This camp agrees that the Model S is an exceptional vehicle built by and amazing, innovative company. This camp recognizes that what Tesla has been able to do in it's relatively short existence is nothing short of a miracle. However, this camp believes in evaluating the car on it's performance and feature set as compared to other luxury autos they may consider purchasing. The performance and smooth operation of the drivetrain are superior to other luxury autos. Point(s) to Tesla. The negative aspects of the out of town travel detracts from the Tesla points, but the advantage still points to Tesla for me. This is not the case for some buyers in the US and many in China. The cost of operation (fueling and maintenance) are lower with the Tesla than an ICE luxury auto. Point(s) to Tesla. Some, but not all in this camp, give the Tesla points for reducing carbon emissions and reducing dependence on foreign oil. Point(s) to Tesla. The interior of the Model S is lacking compared to other luxury autos. The Gen 2 seats are an improvement, but still are not the quality offered by others. The lack of seat cooling, as an example, is a glaring weakness that many $30,000 cars offer, let alone $100,000+ luxury autos. At that level, cooling is a given and massage is optional. Point(s) to ICE Luxury autos. The driver interface in the Tesla is awesome with OTA updates for continuous improvement. Luxury ICE autos have learned from Tesla and are moving quickly to catch-up. Point(s) to Tesla. Tesla has made improvements to the technology offered in the S with the autopilot sensors added in late 2014. While Tesla has moved to catch-up to other luxury and even mid level offerings, they are still lacking many safety and convenience features offered on cars at a far lower price point. Point(s) ICE Luxury autos. The Tesla does sell for a price premium over a comparable luxury ICE auto. Fanboys will argue that there is no automobile that compares so a price comparison is impossible. That is not reality. The federal tax credit somewhat lowers this price premium. Point(s) ICE Luxury autos.
Everyone's calculation will be different. In my case, the calculation showed the Tesla to be the right choice for me. My only point is that the calculation was far closer than it should have been. Improvements to the interior and the feature offerings would have made it a slam dunk for Tesla.
I would argue that there are far more Realists in the world than Fanboys (clearly not on this forum though). I believe that Tesla recognizes this same calculation and is moving to make the calculation a slam dunk. The changes to the S in Fall 2014 (interior and autopilot) were huge steps in the right direction and I expect that Tesla will make another huge leap forward with the X.�
May 9, 2015
ohmman Can't imagine why you'd take any heat for segregating people into two distinct types and naming them "fanboys" and "realists". Segregation of humans into groups and naming them with derogatory or flattering terms (depending on which one you fall into) seems totally reasonable.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Agree. There are many kinds of people who like or dislike the car for many reasons and to classify one as 'fanboys' who have no objectivity isn't right either. Sure those people exist but there are also people who think the drivetrain really is that important but understand that there are features lacking and just don't put as much weight on them as heads up displays and 360 degree cameras. That doesn't make them stupid or blinded by their absolute love for all things Tesla.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK Politically correct - No. Reality - yes. We group people into groups everyday. Republican, Democrat. American, German. Liberal, Conservative. etc etc etc. This forum has been less than kind to anyone with even a neutral opinion of Tesla and I believe many on here would carry the term fanboy as a badge of honor.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Disagree. Plenty of people here are critical of Tesla and they are rarely if ever shouted down. That kind of behavior isn't allowed. Sure, this is an enthusiast site so plenty of people who love their car will argue with someone and try to explain why they enjoy the car so much but that doesn't mean they lack intelligence or any objectivity as the 'fanboy' term implies.�
May 9, 2015
Earlian Feels like we don't have enough new real information about the X and the nearer the release comes, the harder it gets. (Probably I'm only talking of/to myself and it's no answer to any of the last posts)
Maybe "closing TMC till July" is a solution?
[email�protected]
Realistic German Fanboy�
May 9, 2015
JohnSnowNW I think it's more realistic to acknowledge cost constraints than fault a company for not including features of similarly priced vehicles. The realities are that you're complaining about offerings at a certain price point from a company that has only truly existed in the market for 3 years.
Lets be realistic here, your idea of "realism" is just your opinion.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK As an objective buyer of a car, why should I care about how long Tesla has been in business? Either the car is comparable or not. No excuses. Justifying the lack of features in this way does not appeal to the typical luxury buyer. It appeals to the enthusiast or dare I say again, fanboy.
For the record, this thread about expectations for the X. So I am not complaining about anything. I have expectations for the X, which I believe Tesla will meet, or at least meet many of them and probably surprise me with other features that I did not expect.
- - - Updated - - -
Shouted down - no. Told to cancel their deposit and go away - yes.�
May 9, 2015
JohnSnowNW This is exactly my point. You're being completely unrealistic.
It's not about caring, it's about what should be reasonably expected. Tesla can't offer luxury items at the same price-point of companies that have been longer in the business, and produce in greater numbers. How is this not obvious?
Tesla isn't building a luxury vehicle, they're building a performance EV that also comes with some luxury features. Again, ignoring the powertrain of a Tesla when considering the features it offers is ridiculous.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK You are blinded by your love of all things Tesla. The product needs to stand on it's own, without regard to shortcomings of the company offering the product. A segment of the population will buy a product because the company has a special history, but that is a subset of the population.
It is not unrealistic for someone buying a product to only care about that specific product and to ignore any excuses caused by the weaknesses of said company. How do you not get that? Fanboy blindness syndrome?
Your arguments are incorrect. First, Tesla does not offer cars at the same price point as other luxury automakers! There is a substantial price premium. Substantial! They also have the ability to price these features as options at an additional cost. Again, your argument is ludicrous.
I am not sure Tesla would agree that they are not competing in the luxury car market and limiting themselves to some segment of the market called Performance EV.
If you read my analysis, you will see that I mention the positive and negative aspects of the powertrain. How is that ignoring the powertrain? Is your reading comprehension also limited by Fanboy blindness syndrome?�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Well there are people who come here and say they'll be miserable without feature X. I'd consider it good advice to cancel your order for a product that doesn't include a 'must have' feature. And people rarely do this anyway. That doesn't make everyone a 'fanboy' here with no objectivity and you the realist.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Please stop insulting people.
Tesla has said they build 'premium' sedans. You should probably do a little research before insulting people. What John said is correct. Sure, in a perfect world Tesla would have every feature the top of the line S class has but Tesla doesn't have same size, experience or parts bin of a Mercedes. If you don't see that then not sure what to tell you.
Their cars will compete on features alone at some point but that takes time. That's all these 'fanboys' are saying.�
May 9, 2015
aja2460 I've had my Model S for more than two years now. It doesn't have all the features that the car comes with now Am I happy, yes I am, it makes me smile every day. I have a reservation for a Model X and I'm expecting to be very pleasantly surprised. By the way, if the car were to come with all of the bells and whistles imaginable I probably won't be able to afford it.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Exactly. Tesla could include every feature right now but the car would probably cost tens of thousands more and there would likely be more bugs. It simply takes time to roll out new features. If the car doesn't have the features you want and if the EV drivetrain doesn't make up for those missing features then it isn't time to get the car. Saying that doesn't make on a 'fanboy' as some suggest.�
May 9, 2015
Merrill Me too, 24 months and could not be happier. Do not care about most of the new goodies and truthfully love the fact that the interior is clean and uncluttered. Do not like all that stuff that are in the high end luxury brands. Clean and simple like Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture. Some of his design is still current even 50 plus years later. I have a P85+ loaner and every time I drive into the garage it beeps and chimes, prefer no noise.�
May 9, 2015
DrGuest I feel a Derogatory, Divisive, judgmental, name calling,"need to be considered right at others expense" kind of tone in this thread that feels disrespectful on a basic level and I would love to feel it begin to rise above that level real soon�
May 9, 2015
MaxK The people that are weighing the drivetrain and the features in the car and those features absent are making a sound decision. The weight any one person places on any feature, drivetrain or other, is their personal preference and I would never judge them for their personal choice. It is their money and will be their car!
The issue I have are people that want to justify the lack of features based upon some perceived weakness of Tesla or attack someone for simply expecting features on a $100,000+ luxury car. Or to tell people that want features, to just cancel their order. To want features is not a bad thing. Nor is the desire for features an absolute. Just because I want a feature or two or ten, does not mean the car is unacceptable, absent 1 of those features. Cooled seats do come pretty close to a 1 feature deal breaker.�
May 9, 2015
AnxietyRanger I find it equally "curious" that people want a modern car - and then buy an ICE with "beeping stuff", as I do people who buy an EV without "beeping stuff". Both choices are archaic in their own way. ICE is an archaic choice, but lacking modern convenience and safety features is archaic too.
It isn't unreasonable to hope Model X to not be archaic. Suggesting people to cancel now for expecting that is unreasonable. Tesla may still catch up by Model X release. That said, it isn't unreasonable to say Tesla as a company has limitations on what they can make and ship. That, of course, is true as an explanation. Not so much as an excuse.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK How is a premium sedan different than a luxury automobile? How is a premium sedan equivalent to a Performance EV as John limited the Tesla segment. Performance EV is a sub-set of premium sedan and premium sedan is equal to luxury automobile. Research completed.�
May 9, 2015
AnxietyRanger Your argument will be summarily dismissed.�
May 9, 2015
ohmman Can you quote your source for that research? I find them to be pretty loosely defined, but it's possible there's some kind of published hierarchy.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Show me all the posts where people told someone who really wants the car but really want a missing feature are told to cancel the order.
There is nothing wrong with expecting such features on a car costing this much. And it starts closer to $72,000 not $100,000 on what Tesla calls a premium car, not 'luxury' even though it's priced at that level.
And that's what I'm trying to say. Really wanting a feature that it 'should' have is fine and understandable and nothing wrong with that.�
May 9, 2015
dsm363 Well it's Tesla's acknowledgement that the car doesn't have all the luxury features that a 'luxury' car these days have but it outshines those same cars in other aspects.�
May 9, 2015
AnOutsider MaxK, I happen to agree with some of your views. There definitely tends to be a feeling of "giving a pass" or "apologizing" for Tesla on the forum, though it's natural since this is an enthusiast forum. I'd recommend toning it down though.
Yes, you're going to get an overwhelming number of people disagreeing and offering counter-points to most things negatively stated about the company and their cars, but the best thing to do (IMO) is make your point clear, concise and move on. Going back and forth only leads to negativity and then your points get lost in feelings of "he's a troll" (or worse) and get dismissed when ad hominem attacks get in the mix.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK The book of Common Sense. Page 1.
I am welcome to any research that contradicts my research.�
May 9, 2015
porc Lets not beat around the bush here:
The main advantages of ICE vehicles:
1) quick refueling times
2) Long range
3) Lower total cost of ownership
The main advantages of Electric cars:
1) Better, smoother acceleration
2) quiet
3) No pollution of the city
Neutral/debated aspects: Total Co2 put into the atmosphere.
I think the main reason why electric vehicles arent mainstream yet is because of their lack of range and cost. Thus if Tesla wants to crush the ICE thats the top focus.
Many people wont buy an electric car until it hits the 400-600 mile range (at current recharging speeds).�
May 9, 2015
JohnSnowNW I get it:
Common sense = fanboy.
Fine.�
May 9, 2015
MaxK Thanks AnOutsider. Good advice. I will move on.�
May 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I think I can address this, because the very subject has been debated in Honda/Acura forums for much of the past decade.
First, I don't think there's any official or published source for Premium vs. Luxury. However, there does seem to be a line in the minds of auto enthusiasts between "Premium" brands (like Acura, Buick, Infiniti) and "Luxury" brands (BMW, MB, Audi, Porche, etc.). In my observation it comes down to 2 basic things: (1) interior opulence and (2) early adopter technologies.
Acura, as an example of "Premium", is essentially a nicer Honda. The Acura TLX, for example, is built on the Honda Accord platform and uses the same basic engines, with some variation in ECU tuning, exhaust systems, and injectors. The interior materials are a bit nicer, there's more sound insulation, and there are a few more tech features. Honda has also given Acuras more advanced transmissions in order to differentiate the vehicles further. However, Honda usually tends to stick with "tried and true" engineering.
This is different from the Mercedes Benz approach. A Benz generally has a unique RWD platform not shared with a mainstream car. MB is also quicker to offer the latest in engines, transmissions, and tech features. The interiors are much nicer in terms of materials and design. The trade off is a higher sticker price and typically lower reliability. Most of the luxury German brands adopted tech like gasoline Direct Injection much sooner than their Japanese competitors. Owners of some of these cars paid the price in terms of experiencing their engines being fouled due to problems with early generation DI systems.
Tesla is unsurprisingly an oddball that doesn't fit neatly into the existing Premium/Luxury hierarchy. Some Tesla features, like large battery dual motor powertrain, Supercharging, and OTA firmware updates are "early adopter" tech that is exclusive. However, as others have noted, Tesla interiors are Spartan at their price point, and Tesla lagged behind in some features like ACC and Lane Keeping Assist, at least until Autopilot rollout.
For these reasons I think the Premium/Luxury debate applied to Tesla is pointless.
The important question is whether a given Tesla vehicle, as a whole, is more or is less compelling than another vehicle being considered for purchase. Line by line feature comparisons do a poor job of characterizing vehicles as complete systems.�
May 9, 2015
trialcritic Can we please close this topic thread. It is going away from objectivity.�
May 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 That seems a bit harsh. Expectations are by nature subjective.
I do think the discussion has been useful in showing that Tesla really does not fit existing categorization of automotive companies.�
May 9, 2015
AnxietyRanger True as that may be so far, is there any reason to expect things will continue that way with Model X?
I mean, sure, we can expect to still miss some features, but overall isn't the reasonable expectation Tesla will catch up over time.
It isn't like Tesla is dismissing all convenience and safety features on purpose, just to make a different kind of car, other than inability to deliver so far.
(And I'm not talking about a design philosophy of less is more in interior styling. Most of the missing stuff really isn't about that.)�
May 9, 2015
Krugerrand First you make the assumption Tesla wants to 'catch up'. I'd say that Elon has no desire to offer an opulent interior, ever, as an example. He does want to do autonomous driving. So yes, I believe Tesla will continue just as they have with no desire to copy anyone just for the sake of copying. Many of the features that Tesla has added recently were always planned, they just simply couldn't do it all at once. They had to get the Model S out and on the road to move forward.
Tesla will continue to go down the path they feel is best to achieve their ultimate goal. Maybe when they've done the Model 3, and the small CUV, and the pickup, and Roadster (what version are we on now?), and the auto industry has shaken itself out of the ICE age, then Tesla may offer a luxury vehicle with the opulent interior that some seem to prefer, but there's no indication at this point that it will be before. But hey, maybe we'll all be blown away and Model X will have those interior disco lights and enough buttons to open a shirt shop.�
May 9, 2015
AnxietyRanger Yes, in the spirit of this thread I expect Tesla to play catch up on a certain number of features. Even Apple, with very unique design goals for iPhone, played catch up for a number of years, adding features the competition had. Adding planned features, that they couldn't do all at once, certainly constitutes as playing catch up, so there Tesla is playing catch up. OTOH, I also agree Tesla similarly has certain unique design goals they are not interested in changing. Perhaps spartan interiors is one of those. Then again, they already added improved seating and executive rear seats (with cup holders...). In other areas, for sure, competition is playing catch up.
However, Model S is definitely a high-end premium sedan/hatchback. I have argued in another thread it isn't really necessarily competing with the A8s and 7 Series of this world (or other cars in the more opulent end of the spectrum), other than fighting in part for the same customers, but it definitely is competing in size, style and practicality with the likes of Audi A7 or BMW 5 GT - and compared to those it is still missing a large number of safety and convenience features, even if we exclude the highest of the high end.
Don't be silly. Nobody on this thread is expecting Tesla to forgo their touch-based, software-first use paradigm, anymore than they expect Apple to add a number keyboard to the iPhone.�
May 9, 2015
robby Hasn't this feature set already been promised for Model S with existing hardware?
edit: Maybe not "reads.. traffic signals," depending on what is meant by that.�
May 25, 2015
LargeHamCollider You're towing X pectation will be met. Class 3 towing which apparently means "more than 5,000lbs" and "almost 10,000lbs"
source: Videos - Featured Speaker: Jim Chen | TAG TV and Radio for Technology Business News in Georgia�
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