Thứ Tư, 1 tháng 2, 2017

Please chime in if in agreement so that AP is not disabled... part 1

  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    Sorry for the multiple posts but it is getting ridiculous with the drivers crashing and blaming the vehicle. Better to post in the thread on Tesla's forum might get more visibility
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Oursecondone
    yep...sadly necessary, but too many are clueless and not willing to take blame for inattention.....
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    I know I spammed the forum but I am sick of all the nonsense already, I think that if you post in the forum hosted by Tesla they will get the point. We as owners don't mind going through the training if its for the greater good. If someone refuses, disable and give them back their $2500, in the long run Tesla is saving $.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jdw
    Posted in the most recent "AP crashed my car" thread today:

    Most of the regular posters here are somewhat technical and understand, at least at a conceptual level, how AP sensors work and their limitations. If you really had no idea and AP seemed somewhat magical, this kind of thing is what happens. Read the news articles about these events and even if they're written to slam Tesla, you realize how poorly AP is understood by the masses.

    I think all Tesla could do about this would be to create a training and certification program for AP with a sign off that you had received the training, understood the limitations and were responsible for the operation of the vehicle at all times. No certification, no autopilot.

    They shouldn't have to do this; AP is really only TACC and lane keeping, but the recent spate of driver error related AP posts suggests otherwise. It would at least help with the PR. Every recent AP accident has had a large, if not complete, case of drivers overestimating or not understanding AP's current abilities.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    ABCCBA
    Other Waivers and Training (W&T) Needed:

    Using Cruise Control - Both Standard and Adaptive
    Using the Brake Pedal - How to Stop a Vehicle
    Using the Accelerator - How to Use Gradual Acceleration Techniques versus Matting the Pedal
    Rear View Camera - How to use side mirrors and the rear view camera safely
    Turn Signals - How to notify surrounding motorists of your intentions to change lanes or turn
    Vanity Mirror/Rear View Mirror Usage - Not to be utilized as a cosmetic mirror while moving
    Loud Music - Why playing the music too loud is a safety hazard to all surrounding drivers and first responders

    How far are you going to take it? Why not just ban vehicles? Too many people die each day from automobiles that murder their drivers and/or passengers.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jdw
    Agree completely, but in this case ignorance is affecting Tesla and ultimately each of us. As I said, you shouldn't have to do this ...but not doing it may be worse for everyone involved.

    I also realize that you already have to acknowledge the risks and responsibility before AP is enabled, but this depends upon the person actually reading and understanding - in a small but very visible part of Tesla's user base, this does not seem to be happening.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    JeffK
    Doesn't really belong in the Model 3 forums but we've mentioned in other threads that videos would be helpful for customers and the general public.
    We've seen many people trying to "test the autopilot limits" because the limits are possibly not clear to people. Where is it useful, where does it fail, where does it work best, what possible difficulties are there, what conditions might adversely affect how it works, etc... Many of us can make highly educated guesses, but it'd be nice for an official video.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    Like jdw said, it is going to affect us and the technology is fairly new and some don't know its limitations. If me enduring a video and signing a waiver will prevent AP from being removed all together then so be it.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    I was trying to get maximum exposure, I do believe it belongs here because sooner rather than later there will be more model 3 owners than any other Tesla model and many will want to have AP. You can proactively voice your concern now so that it is not the case when you receive your 3.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    JeffK
    I expect if I pay extra for a feature that it will be enabled. I also expect that autopilot is far more advanced on the Model 3.

    It would not be disabled... Should we disable all seat belts or airbags because one or two people used them incorrectly and events happened possibly out of their control? You don't go around disabling safety features that actually work when used properly.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Breezy
    Waivers are of limited help. Are all passengers going to sign waivers? Renters? Borrowers? What about other road users? Pedestrians?

    Either the system is ready to be used by customers on public roads, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for defects, or it isn't.

    I don't think Tesla needs to disable Autopilot. Just change the implementation to require more frequent hands on the wheel reminders (with appropriate sensitivity to avoid excessive false alarms), and be explicit in all marketing (including Elon's tweets) that it is not self-driving, but merely a driving aid.

    Tesla has happily accepted the mantle of a leader in semi-autonomous driving technology. With that comes some responsibility to ensure these systems are used properly. They should spend some advertising dollars to educate the public, including intended purchasers.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    I am not one to dictate how Tesla should implement the training, but based on recent events it should. The tech is fairly new and safety of it has yet to be proven. I do believe that it will lead to safer roads, but if many current drivers are misusing it then it is not the case. There are some features which are more safety focused such as the collision warnings but I am referring to the active steering which falls under convenience. By the way if you pay for the option then you should be fully able to sit down and get educated on the tech, if you are unwilling to do so then get a refund.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jdw
    To my knowledge, we haven't seen a defect in AP and certainly not in the lane keeping aspect of it. TACC works about the same as any other manufacturers TACC and likely better. We have seen a number of instances of operator error or misunderstanding that Tesla has to carry the can for.

    Unfortunately, Tesla (and TSLA) has a target on its back and likely should go the extra mile that other manufacturers don't have to.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Drivin
    Unfortunately waivers doesn't help the other drivers on the road who have to deal with beta software cars.

    Perhaps when autopilot is enabled it can also flash the hazard lights to inform other drivers.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Drivin
    Unfortunately waivers doesn't help the other drivers on the road who have to deal with beta software cars.

    Perhaps when autopilot is enabled it can also flash the hazard lights to inform other drivers.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Reeler
    To have a paid beta for life threatening technology was a mistake on Tesla's part. AP 1.0 will never get out of beta. AP 2.0 might, but what are all the folks going to do that are stuck with AP 1.0 in perpetual beta.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jdw
    I've long advocated a roadside IQ test ...
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Shawn Snider
    You do realize that most, if not all of these AP news stories as of late are of Human-Error, right?

    And how do you have 754 posts since Feb 7th?....... Very intradast.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Reeler
    To have a paid beta for life threatening technology was a mistake on Tesla's part. AP 1.0 will never get out of beta. AP 2.0 might, but what are all the folks going to do that are stuck with AP 1.0 in perpetual beta.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    X Yes?
  • Jul 11, 2016
    182RG
    Like a giant sign on the back of the car that says 'Student Software'?

    You acknowledge a waiver when you accept the warnings on the screen. You can't even get people to read owners manuals, much less watch a video, or a series of videos with tests, or in-car/simulator training like in an aircraft environment. It is a struggle to overcome human nature.

    I have experience as a flight instructor flying with aircraft owners to train and log insurance hours, who have purchased new aircraft or upgraded their avionics with more advanced automation systems (nav, autopilot, glass cockpit). It has to start with the discipline to understand both your own limitations, and the limitations of the systems involved and understand how you manage risk. It also starts with education, and immersing yourself in the documentation. You would be surprised how many pilots have $500K for a technologically advanced aircraft, yet are too lazy and/or impatient to educate themselves on what could kill them or save their lives.

    It's difficult enough in an aircraft environment. Transferring this to car owners is exponentially more difficult. The average car owner is low information. How many forums have you been on where the response to a questions is RTFM. As another poster above stated, the system needs to be as intuitive as possible.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    ecarfan
    I just posted on the Tesla forum supporting the OP of that thread.

    @zambono it is known that people at Tesla read TMC, they do pay attention to what goes on here.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    mikeash
    No, no, no. Autopilot is fine. Many drivers suck. They'll suck in any car. Autopilot is still a net improvement for them.

    Every day I see people driving erratically because they're texting. Shall we force everyone to sign a waver before they're allowed to purchase a smartphone?

    I've seen people reading newspapers at the wheel. A notorious forum member here reads books at the wheel. Do we require training and wavers for newspapers and books?

    Every day I see drivers behaving badly. Do we have required training for people to drive a car? Oh wait, we do! That is where efforts should be concentrated.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    ccutrer
    I'm going to keep enjoying it, while still paying attention to the road, and ready to take control at any time.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Merrill
    I really do not get this reaction on the AP, Tesla always seems to get the attention and none of the other millions of cars out on the road are never get the media's attention. I have already posted about the misconception of what AP does vs autonomous driving. You need to be alert and use your brain, if you do something stupid you might get into trouble. I'm also concerned that the powers that be will step in at limit this technology, and that would be unfortunate.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    msnow
    Now that the NTSB has joined in this investigation, why not wait until we get the results of the NHSTA and NTSB before people start looking for solutions?
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Milin1609
    People and Media need to understand that AP is still in BETA. Meaning, still in development.. Yes, we have paid for it, knowing that it is not fully operational. But that doesn't mean, we rely on it. Once it get full approval, it shall be released from Tesla. Even then, I will never fully depend on AP. No one blames AP till it involves in an accident. In all these Tesla accidents, I have seen some kind of human errors. The biggest one is over confident in AP system. One should never trust it fully, even if it not in BETA mode. It is there for some relaxation while driving.
    Just my 2 cents.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jeffro01
    Life threatening technology??? Wow... Just wow... Sometimes you just don't know how to react when you see someone post something that is so unbelievably ignorant, it defeats the ability to respond rationally...

    Jeff
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    AB4EJ
    My concern is a panicky overreaction from the government to ban Autopilot and similar technology for 2 - 3 years while they write rules on it, like what happened with drones. I hope that this is not what happens, but I am afraid it will, based on experience...
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Gizmotoy
    You got dislikes, but I don't really agree with them. Instituting a waiver policy is almost guaranteed to ensure Tesla is sued in the event of an accident with another vehicle, and weakens their legal position by providing written evidence that they believe the feature is unsafe enough to warrant a signed waiver of rights and in-person training.

    The current setup is the right balance, IMO.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    ecarfan
    In this case I think there are two principal factors involved:

    Articles with Tesla in the headline get clicks, and...

    Tesla AP is the first partially autonomous driving system that has had widespread use because it is remarkably good at what it does within the limits described by Tesla. There are other very limited similar systems from other manufacturers but they are so poor that far fewer people use them.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    Not sure if the No No is directed at me, but just in case that was my point we need at the very least an informative video for Tesla drivers as to the capabilities of AP before it is enabled for them.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    deonb
    By "life threatening technology" I assume you mean cars. Yes, we know - cars are dangerous.

    That's why you should take care when operating them.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Wuggado?
    I gotta agree with this. The distracted drivers (and there are a lot of them) will be safer with lane keeping and TACC technology. The person who becomes less safe is the person who believes the technology is fool-proof and thus they don't need to pay attention at all.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    mikeash
    And my point is that bad drivers are an epidemic and it's something that needs better training and testing to address. Autopilot misuse is a tiny subset of the larger problem. Videos and waivers won't help the problem, they'll just be annoying for people who don't suck.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jsrawa
    While I think these reported users are misusing Autopilot or simply using it as an out to blame something or someone else, I do believe that the limits of Autopilot need to be more openly expressed by Tesla. In an effort to market the product I think they, whether intentional or not, do not discuss its true capabilities or pitfalls and leave it vague. I'm a big fan of Tesla and have a 3 reserved and I hope for an even more advanced system on my 3.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    CHG-ON
    I am totally OK with training and signing a waiver. I'd gladly do it, even though I have been using AP everyday since launch and understand its limitations fully. I can always learn more. We don't get training now. But we are, in effect, signing a waiver when we select agree to the onscreen disclaimer. I do not think that having us physically sign a waiver would put Tesla at risk. Depending upon the wording, they are not necessarily admitting that the feature is inherently unsafe, just that it is not fully autonomous.

    Unfortunately, I think training really only helps those who are motivated to know the most in order to be safe. As we all see almost everyday, there are many drivers that don't care enough about safety to put their full attention on driving: texting, on the phone, reading and every other thing we can imagine. Chalk it up to ignorance.

    Aside from the simple fact of not wanting to put my own life at risk, I am HIGHLY motivated to not crash (or even scratch!) my $130K folly. Seems like common sense to me.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    RogerHScott
    Is that even an option? Hand me that petition! ;)
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    RogerHScott
    I disagree. Anything that seems like "automation" will only encourage people who are already paying insufficient attention to the task of driving to pay even less attention. We're getting into sort of an "uncanny valley" situation here, where cars are more and more likely to seem to promise more than they can actually deliver, tempting more and more of those with poor judgment to overly rely on them. As superficially appealing as it is, the "screw the idiots, let 'em crash!" attitude is ultimately unlikely to serve the purposes of the greater (semi-)autonomous driving community.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    inspron
    Stupid idea.

    Short sighted shortcut of a suggestion insteading of spending the resources to design an improved interface and intuitive user experience. OP, does it occur to you no one reads the 10 page fine prints?

    What happens when there are multiple drivers?? Signing *sugar* doesn't change users' understanding of limitations of the technology. Sure create a video of 100s exceptions cases on when it doesn't work and expect people to remember each applicability of the exceptions during a split second emergency?? What happens when you release an update that reduce/change those limitations???

    Dim witted suggestion!
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    JeffK
    It's actually not as complex as you're making it out to be. An entire video might be less than five minutes long. It could easily be updated with every relevant firmware release that involve autopilot related changes.

    You might have seen similar videos during any drivers training course or motorcycle training course..
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    javawolfpack
    It's nearly impossible to design software for "idiots"... the user is the bane of any software developer. I'm not sure if there is a solution to make sure people who own Teslas w/ AP use it safer. There are people who can't seem to follow simple rules they were supposed to learn to drive in the first place, or fail to follow any posted instructions on the road. Yes, systems like AP might make these horrible drivers more complacent; however, it also might protect more of us from their stupidity at the same time, I realize as a level 2 autonomous vehicle this isn't assured but they likely would drive the same regardless in my opinion.

    And as one who fully grasps the technology, limitations, etc... I'm excited to have it in my vehicle, but also appreciate that it doesn't mean I can stop focusing on driving and let the car take over completely for me. Now mind you appreciate very few people have my educational background...
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    zambono
    Don't worry about that guy he is much more concerned about belittling others ideas than actually bringing something thoughtful to the table. Normally people like that are simply called trolls, and while many of us enjoy our successes all they do is complain from the sidelines.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    RogerHScott
    What you are waiving when you sign a waiver is the right to hold someone legally accountable for something, usually the consequences
    of some action you are about to take. Tesla wouldn't be offering such a waiver unless they implicitly believed that there was some
    potential legal liability they're trying to avoid. Bottom line: people not at risk don't bother with waivers.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    CHG-ON
    Ahh. But clearly Tesla has a huge risk, even without AP. They are transporting people at high speeds, completely out of Tesla's control, who can kill themselves, either through their actions, or other's. They are smart to cover themselves. Also, I am not an automotive or software law expert, so I am postulating, but physically signing a form vs clicking an alert may well be the exact same thing legally. Just look at all the software disclaimers we all need to sign to use our devices. They are holding up in court.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Genshi
    I agree they need to do something, if for no other reason than they're getting hammered in the press for something that's almost certainly the fault of the drivers in question. I understand that autopilot uses a very, very complex algorithm. But you don't have to understand the algorithm to understand that they advise using it in VERY limited scenarios and that you must always continue paying attention.

    At this point, I wouldn't use autopilot any less carefully than I currently use cruise control. Not because it isn't worlds different and better, but because at this point it's not capable of processing a large subsection of real world stimuli. (ie: pedestrians, cross traffic, traffic signs, etc)
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jdw
    While I agree with you, I'm not that worried about the NHSTA and the NTSB ... I'm worried about the constant flow of misinformation in the media. I don't know that there is anything Tesla can do about that as there are an awful lot of people (lot of awful people?) with a vested interest in Tesla failing. It's a PR fight more than anything.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    msnow
    That's true.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    yo mama
    You can try to make something idiot proof, but they'll just make a better idiot.

    The only reason a waiver makes sense is so that Tesla has a better legal defense. But it won't make anyone safer and I'm fine with that. Dumb people have been killing themselves with their own stupidity for as long has there have been people. Nothing Tesla could possibly do would ever change that. As it stands Tesla does a better job than most of protecting its drivers. My personal belief is that stifling this technology would be a net loss for long term driver saftey.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jgs
    All the overreaction in the media is completely inane, and I'm afraid that reacting to the overreaction is just second-order inane. About the only thing I think Tesla should do is drop the silly "beta" tag.

    Fortunately they don't care what I think about what they should do.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    Hengist
    I might think that anything that impedes or removes the autopilot functions, for which we paid significant money, and which are a key feature of the car, would be an invitation to a massive class action lawsuit. So far I have seen nothing suggesting undisclosed defects in the software. It has not shown itself to be more dangerous when in use than when not in use.

    Acceleration, high top speed, these are dangerous. Should they be limited? Hardly. Autopilot does not fall into that. Those who wish can always disable it. Indeed Tesla is the only car I know of where you can disable high rates of acceleration and limit top speed in software.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    S4WRXTTCS
    All AP version are going to be in perpetual beta. It's a learning system.

    Wasn't Hal 9000 in Beta??

    Err, wait bad example.
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  • Jul 11, 2016
    jkk_
    Except he did suggest something, emphasis mine:

    With respect, I'd rather have them improve the interface and not try to nanny their customers. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't inform about the systems current shortcomings which I believe they do. AFAIK, when someone enables AP (s)he will receive the warning and is accepting responsibility.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    GoTslaGo
    [?IMG]

    Saw this with your link to the forums, by mp1156.

    Just had to repost here because I liked it!

    And yes, I would like it if Tesla had a training course, or even a simulator for AP.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    zambono
    My point
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    doctorwho
    Agree, just call it Autopilot 1.0. Even better call it Driver assistant 1.0 and change the name of the driver to the Supervisor. That clarifies the relationship
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    jdw
    I don't think "waiver" is the right term or method. I saw it more as certifying that the "operation and limitations of AP have been explained to me and I understand". I don't believe a company can use a user agreement to limit their liability and agree that acknowledging risk with a waiver might put Tesla in a worse position legally.

    While you generally can't fix stupid, you might prevent at least some people from thinking that they had bought a magic self-driving car.

    Even a training video with a sign-off that you had watched and understood would help with the PR. Tesla has a big target on their backs and any proactive efforts would help.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    Mark C
    I'm hoping it's like the Model S and stays an option. That way, the person who buys mine used can get the option turned on if they want it. I wouldn't care for it any more than I would pay extra for extra acceleration.

    I really don't want to get used to my 3 doing most of my job and then me destroying our Silverado because I was used to the vehicle doing whatever task for me. Twice since I bought our Prius, I've locked my keys in my other car because I drive the Prius most of the time and never have to take the keys out of my pocket.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    thegruf
    one person killed apparently driving illegally in excess of the speed limit whilst not observing the road as specified by the manufacturer while the car was on AP in a sample of 130M miles driven or in excess of 3 million hours of driving (avg 40mph)

    505 people killed in the USA by accidental discharge of a firearm (2013 data)

    Avoiding the guns/no guns debate ...

    All guns should be removed from sale and from owners until they are rendered impossible to accidentally discharge.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    Chopr147
    I have been taking accident reports from people for over 25 years now. It is very rare for someone to take responsibility and admit fault. Most just lie and many are very good at it. Others really believe the other driver is at fault even if they were the one that blew a stop sign, red light etc.....Blaming AP was inevitable the day it was announced. A cop taking the report will not know if AP was on or not but I believe Tesla can find out. I find it suspicious Tesla has not been able to get the information for that X that some how flipped. No deaths so the police dep't would have no problem giving Tesla access with owners permission. He has not given it.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    mikeash
  • Jul 12, 2016
    Automaton
    They need to stop calling it "autopilot," as this is not its stated intent at this stage of development. It's more like cruise control with experimental attempts at braking and steering. If it's included free, I might try it as a gimmick. Other than that, I enjoy hands-on driving and would never pay for this in its current level of functionality
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    JeffK
    The current level of functionality is far more in line with the word "autopilot" than a fully autonomous car would be.
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  • Jul 12, 2016
    alseTrick
    Uh, that's exactly what autopilot is.
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    Reeler
    It is a learning system, but I don't think they can ever get blind spot, detecting auto park situations or lane keeping working well enough to exit beta. In beta, we are supposed to forgive poor operation, but we presume that those features will eventually work most all of the time. With the AP 1.0 sensor suite, I don't think that is possible.

    I welcome improvement, but as a purchaser, I expect things to function as marketed in the sales pitch. Without better sensors, they never will be that useful in the real world.
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    Hitman007
    My wife's new Honda Pilot Elite has adaptive cruise with Lane Keeping Assist where you can take your hands off the wheel and it will drive itself and stay between the lines on the road. Not as robust as Teslas system but still could be abused by getting complacent whole driving. Yet I hear nothing about people crashing Hondas....
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    idoco
    If Tesla AP is Beta WTH is this! Oh wait...they're not labeled Beta so it's ok...

    13524503_10154989991367814_4472609978539064486_n.jpg
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    idoco
  • Jul 13, 2016
    Genshi
    That's sort of the rub though, isn't it? Autopilot, as defined by aviation et al would mean this is a true example of autopilot. But for the general public, and that is target demographic for this product, autopilot is construed as synonym for autonomous. What it allows one to do makes it FEEL more complete than it really is, in spite of all the verbal/written warnings. And the general public relies on feelings and the press for most of their conclusions, unless the subject in question happens to be in an arena they're educated in. And that's where the issue is. Calling it autopilot conveys something very different to the average American than it does to those of us in TMC or folks in Aviation.

    So I stand with Automaton in this case... at this juncture, as it currently exists, I'd only use it if it were free. Granted I don't have a commute that would make significant use of autopilot anyway, but I also don't enjoy hands on driving all that much and I'd love to have something take over for me. Automaton's point appeared to be that it may fit the technical definition of Autopilot, but calling it that leads an average driver to overly optimistic conclusions about its capabilities. I think that's an accurate assessment.
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    crackers8199
    i've done the same thing with my volt and my older jeep cherokee...but the idea that you might forget how to do something because the tesla does it for you most of the time seems silly to me. you'd know you're driving a vehicle that doesn't have AP, no? why would you expect it to do something it never does?

    something small like leaving the keys in the car is one thing, but the difference in driving a tesla vs any other vehicle is going to be quite obvious, IMO...
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    DrGuest
    Call me unusual, I love AP but I have one or two hands on the steering wheel at all times and use it only on boring, straight sections of freeway driving. I hold the wheel firmly when passing cars, trucks, cross an overpass and around curves. I use AP to reduce fatigue and not for multi-tasking. In Montana we have lots of conditions that I choose to remain in control for, curves that were never made to go 81 mph, poor painted lines, gravel roads, intersections without stop signs. I have a friend who got hit by a deer and was very happy that AP kept him straight and in his lane till he was able to choose to pull over. Falling asleep at the wheel briefly would be safer with AP also. I follow what Tesla told me about how to use AP correctly and ignore the viral videos that show dangerous and risky driving behaviors while using AP. As long as I consciously use AP to reduce fatigue instead of using it for multitasking, I feel safer and grateful for the Driver"s Assisted features included in the AP package to date.
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    Automaton
    Exactly.
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    JeffK
    100% of newborns and 92.76% of dogs don't understand the word autopilot either. However, the people who we should poll are actual Tesla owners with autopilot enabled cars.

    I'd venture to bet you'll find the majority do understand it better than the general public. It's not terribly important that non-owners understand the capabilities unless they find themselves behind the wheel without training on how the car functions. In addition we need lawmakers, regulating bodies, and authorities to fully understand the capabilities. I'm not too worried about some guy with a mullet and a broken water heater.

    It sounds like the state trooper involved in the Montana crash understood autopilot enough to write a citation for careless driving haha. :)
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    Genshi
    You're not wrong. I suppose the larger theoretical issue is one of taking responsibility for one's actions... which even Tesla owners who understand Autopilot may be loathe to do. Or FULLY comprehending AP, which even a lot of Tesla owners don't or won't. Particularly once the Model ? rolls out.

    Understanding that it auto-brakes, but not with cross traffic, or only with cross traffic of a certain variety (eg: not trucks) or only cross traffic of a certain variety when the sun isn't in your eyes... stuff like that. It's a LOT to keep track of. Particularly when you're on the road semi-driving and/or things are being updated over the air on occasion. I can't confidently say I understand it, and I've been reading/researching it since I reserved my Model ?. And uhh... I may have a Tesla problem <pronounced: ob-sesh-on>, so I've spent a lot of time trying to understand Tesla, AP, et al.

    PS: I have a mullet and a broken water heater. (okay fine I'm full of peaches'n'cream (self censor!) and I'm having fun with you. I have a beard and a broken computer. Close?)
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  • Jul 13, 2016
    Automaton
    Too bad so sad if they can't figure it out isn't really a solution, and it's bad business. The first rule of product design is don't make the customer think. Besides that, the extent to which Tesla makes AP idiotproof covers their ass against lawsuits.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2016
    S4WRXTTCS
    Is blind spot monitoring in beta? I know they now call it side monitoring, but it used to be called blindspot monitoring. I don't believe that specific component has ever been in beta. At least not since the early days of it.

    I say that to illustrate that with Tesla the term beta doesn't seem to have any reflection on how well it works. But, when it says beta it means they're going to refine the software elements of it, and add things to it. They're also going to address user interface issues (like they did with summons).

    With auto park there is a chance for improvements hence the beta
    With lane-steering there are continual improvements hence the beta

    With blindspot monitoring right now? Nah, that sucks and it will always suck till version 2 of the hardware.

    Aside from what we call things you are right in that these things really won't work well until the next hardware revision of them. I would argue that lane-keeping and collision avoidance will likely require multiple hardware rev's to even reach a 99% mark.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2016
    S4WRXTTCS
    Does anyone know if Tesla has ever called a critical function as being in beta regardless of how well it worked?

    Critical functions like

    AEB
    TACC
    Blindspot monitoring
    Side Monitoring (the new name for blindspot monitoring)
    Collision warning

    I know AP as a whole is considered Beta
    I know lane-steering is in beta
    I know summons is in beta
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    Reeler
    Blind Spot Detection is now Side Monitoring? Nevermind, it works perfectly!

    Rename AP to "Auto Lane Sometimes" and Auto Park to "Park on Occasion" and everything will be fixed!
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    Doug_G
    Please do not cross-post multiple forums - it is against the terms of service. Also makes work for the moderators, who have to merge all of them...
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    Inverse
    No problem whit the autopilot. The problem is human stupidity

    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    tdelta1000
    Shutting down Autopilot would be like shutting down the future. I say Autopilot is a more advanced cruise control that still needs HUMAN interaction.
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    TrevTremaine
    I know when I bought my '08 BMW 5 series with Active Cruise control, I had to sign waivers acknowledging my responsibilities. I realise that I basically did it when I clicked on the button on the first use of Autopilot. Still, from a legal perspective, I can see doing likewise again in paperwork for having it active. It's stunning to see how people are stupidly abusing this (sitting in the rear seat with autopilot should earn that guy a license suspension minimum), but I guess it's inevitable given how many people also drive while looking at cellphones or texting.

    For those who think training should be mandatory, I understand, but then what happens when there's an update? Does that mean one has to go through it all again? I can understand that perhaps Tesla should take some time with people to show them exactly how Autopilot works - it would add roughly a half hour to the delivery time I would think. That, or leave time to have new owners ask specific questions prompted by asking the new owners how they would start using Autopilot.
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    GoTslaGo
    I wonder if they could do some type of link to Tesla.com with some type of tutorial with each relevant update of AP. You would get a release note, and then an email with a hyperlink to a tutorial that you can do online.
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    CHG-ON
    I completely agree. It happens with pretty much every news story these days.. I just read a post by Steve Hanley on Teslerati about the phrase �If it bleeds, it leads,� . It is so true.
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    nienco2
    I am sure there are readers of the is thread with engineering backgrounds whom I would pose the following thought experiment.

    EM asks you to test AP in a circumstance where a white tractor trailer is crossing an undivided highway. The driver is wantonly disregarding the warnings to keep hands on the wheel and is either distracted or incapacitated at 60 mph. You set up a crash test with a test dummy and send the car down the road. The result is the same is what happened in the May 7th accident. You are not giving opinion on fault but only the performance of the systems, (AEB, TACC, Autosteer for example).

    What would you report back to EM summarizing the performance of AP?

    I personally have experience testing seat belt systems on sled tests for systems regulated and non regulated by the NHTSA and am well aware of the potential liability risk with any automotive safety product. From the tweets of Mr Musk re:accidents I am shocked that he doesn�t have general counsel advising him against any public pronouncements, particularly getting out ahead of the the NHTSA and NTSB. Those agencies will takes weeks perhaps months to get the facts straight and there is simply no way that Tesla has that same amount of information already and his attitude towards safety could appear cavalier. It is not just about logs from the vehicle.
    �
  • Jul 14, 2016
    msnow
    We also don't know if advise was givin if it was ignored.
    �
  • Jul 15, 2016
    DrivingTheFuture
    I'm just really hoping that Autopilot can clip my toenails while I drive to work, if not I may be canceling my Model 3 reservation. It is quite annoying to have to clip my toenails at home and this is main reason I placed a reservation for a Tesla.
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  • Jul 15, 2016
    ABCCBA
    Some of you act as if this technology only exists in Tesla. Volvo, Mercedes, Honda, Lincoln, BMW, etc.have this technology. Telsa just used the wrong name to gain a marketing advantage.

    Additionally, the Federal Government has mandated that in 2020 ALL new manufactured passenger vehicle have frontal collision avoidance systems. These systems utilize the same exact technology of sensing the surroundings, judging speed and direction of object sand slowing or stopping the vehicle. This is not going away. Not for Tesla and not for all the vehicles that are and will be built with this technology. And, there will be no waiver, other than the message that pops up on the vehcile's display that tells the driver to pay attention. JMHO
    �
  • Jul 15, 2016
    TrevTremaine
    Here's the best analogy I can think of:

    If anyone has taken a long distance trip on a commercial jet in the past 20 or so years, the pilots have used autopilot at some point. Does the pilot and co-pilot both get up and leave the cabin at the same time? No. Why? In order to ensure that a responsible person can take control the plane in the event of something going amiss (I believe federally mandated). So what is so different about this system? Nothing. The driver of the vehicle is still responsible for ensuring that they are in control of the vehicle at all times. How many people would think twice if someone said that there was no pilot on the plane? Most likely everyone. People who decide to sit in the back seat and show off, or fall asleep fail the first task of responsibility. Raise the penalties accordingly, including revoking driving licenses.

    When you call something "self-driving", that infers (to me, at least) that it can manage without the aid of a driver. Google has said that, and has gone the extra step of trying to eliminate the driver by removing the steering wheel, which the US government has turned around and kiboshed the idea.

    Autopilot is evolving, but even Musk has said it is not currently fully autonomous and has a ways to go. Yes, he has an idea of where the technology is going and has expressed it. The press, including the likes of Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, MotorTrend, etc who have spent time evaluating these systems puts Tesla at the tops, but not without caveats. What's funny is that the likes of Consumer Reports have only asked Tesla to stop, but nobody else - and that is wrong. If they're going to take a stand, then they should be requesting all the manufacturers to stop. That includes Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Jaguar, Rover, Google and probably more.

    Personally, I see no problem using Autopilot. Take the time to understand the system, how it works, the caveats and most importantly pay attention - it's a useful tool. Abuse it and well...
    �
  • Jul 16, 2016
    doctorwho
  • Jul 18, 2016
    engle
    This example is actually an AP parody video with 131K views, and includes the following disclaimer:

    "This video was filmed in a Tesla Model X with the autopilot feature, which prompts a warning sound if the driver needs to put his or her hands on the wheel. Please know that for the safety of others, as well as ourselves, extensive planning and safety precautions were implemented (including takes that were only a few seconds long.) This �road trip� is meant as a parody only. We do not rely on the auto-pilot feature as portrayed in the video and we never sleep while the car is driving itself, nor should anyone else. Thanks for watching!"
    �
  • Jul 19, 2016
    TrevTremaine
    Regardless, just call them by their proper name: organ donors. There was enough time in which they were sufficiently distracted that an accident could have occurred - in heavy traffic at that. This in the name of notoriety in a video.
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