May 28, 2016
bagleyc Model S P90D 129914 | Tesla Motors
Brand new P90D listed on TM website discounted $10k with 50 miles and no range upgrade listed on options. Don't mean to start this crazyness all over again but interesting.......�
May 28, 2016
bagleyc Another one with YFFC? New front end?�
May 28, 2016
SDRick I am confused. Where does the P100D come into play and how does one tell if this is a refreshed unit?�
May 28, 2016
Derek Kessler You can tell that it's an old car from the profile and rear images.
Profile: old nose cone https://www.teslamotors.com/configurator/compositor/?model=ms&view=STUD_SIDE&size=1920&bkba_opt=2&file_type=jpg&options=MS01,RENA,AF00,AU01,BC0R,BP01,BR00,BS00,CDM0,CH00,COL3-PPMR,CW02,DA02,DCF0,DRLH,DSH7,DV4W,FG02,HP00,IDCF,IX01,LP01,ME02,MI00,PA00,PF01,PI01,PK00,PS01,PX00,PX4D,QNEB,RFP2,SC01,SP00,SR01,ST02,SU01,TM00,TP03,TR00,UTAB,WTAS,WTX1,X001,X003,X007,X011,X013,X019,X024,X027,X028,X031,X037,X040,YFFC
Rear view: old metal diffuser�
May 28, 2016
Derek Kessler As for the discount, these are both old showroom cars that have since been replaced by the updated S.�
May 28, 2016
Tech_Guy I think he's just pointing out the text at the bottom that says NO RANGE UPGRADE, if you recall when the 90 battery pack first came out it was listed as a "range upgrade" option over the 85 so he's theorizing that Tesla might offer a range upgrade for the 90 to the 100�
May 28, 2016
Evbwcaer I guess because it is a 90 and it lists one of the options as, "No Range Upgrade," or something like that. It implies there is a range upgrade option on a 90.�
May 28, 2016
Derek Kessler Or it's just being clear that there is not a range upgrade available if you buy these cars, whereas it would be available if you bought a refreshed 70.�
May 28, 2016
eclipxe There is an rumbling rumor that some newer 90's can be unlocked to a 100. We will see.�
May 28, 2016
GoTslaGo Just like how newer S70 can be unlocked to S75. Really does bring up the question of where to set your 90% if you have a locked version that can be upgraded.�
May 29, 2016
Bladerunner Good point! Your 90% could actually be at 96%.
Or not, if they cut at the low end. Which is more probable, as you have to be able to balance the pack once in a while and charge up to 100%.
Not sure I like this software option, car refuses to move, but actually would still have enough juice to get to the next SC.
"Now just pay 3000$ and we have you on the road again! Thank you!"
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May 29, 2016
D�rik Solutions That would be a nice surprise!
Thanks Erik�
May 29, 2016
JAFO Was informed today that my 70D delivered March 23 is NOT eligible for 75D software upgrade.
VIN 139xxx�
May 29, 2016
D�rik Solutions My understanding was only the refreshed 70's are capable of the 75 upgrade.
Thanks Erik�
May 30, 2016
cash227 Hopefully Elon would announce it sometime this year, or during the pt. 2 of the Model 3 Reveal which is scheduled to happen sometime next year. Either way, it's something very interesting and exciting to look forward to in the near future!
Way to go Tesla!�
May 31, 2016
Colsla I just took screen capture of two Tesla's from Tesla website. Both are under 'buy new' but each have 100km on them.
While I have no idea when both cars were manufactured, I noticed that 90D doesnt have 'no range upgrade' while 70D does have it.
If the 70D was produced recently enough that it has an upgrade option to 75D, then it may not be a typo or clarification but an implication that 90D will be upgradable to 100D.
I am not sure where I heard EM or JB say it, but one of them said recently that they have an announcement to make in a few weeks, and that was about a week or two ago..
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May 31, 2016
eclipxe We will see soon hopefully�
Jun 1, 2016
zambono The oddest part to me about the No Range Upgrade in the 90D mentioned by OP is that its a pre refresh model with a vin 129... It might just be a web dev mistake in that they aren't excluding that option in the 90's. Even this 85D has No Range Upgrade, Model S 85D 122217 | Tesla Motors
I think its just a bug�
Jun 1, 2016
sandpiper Interestingly some of the very new 90Ds are shown as "Range Upgrade".
Model S 90D 136532 | Tesla Motors
And a slightly earlier VIN is noted "No Range Upgrade"
Model S 90D 134934 | Tesla Motors�
Jun 1, 2016
zambono Now that is a catch, "Range Upgrade" on a pre refresh, so odd�
Jun 1, 2016
sandpiper Either they're very sloppy with their adverts, confusing 90s with 70s, or there are covert 95/100s slithering around out there among us.�
Jun 1, 2016
zambono We would have noticed a model change in the battery itself, on the sticker. Not sure if any refresh 90D has shown us their sticker.�
Jun 3, 2016
villhelm People have their cars already. I guess there was same old stickers..�
Jun 3, 2016
GoTslaGo Speaking of stickers. If you unlock a larger battery after the fact, do you get to bring it in to get a new badge?
70D-->75D; 90D-->100D
Did Tesla do this with the 40-->60 changes?�
Jun 3, 2016
Rhyder Yes. The SC will update your badge.�
Jun 3, 2016
calisnow Hey folks - just to play devil's advocate - if the current 90's are actually software limited why would Tesla hide this upgrade for so long instead of telling us right now and unlocking the 100 kwhr potential?�
Jun 3, 2016
Zaphod Because they probably don't want to tick off people who bought prior 90s over the past year (or whenever the 90 was announced).�
Jun 3, 2016
wdolson I doubt the new 90s are software limited. There is no reason to do that and not tell people right away except as an outside possibility the 100 upgrade will be free (the 60-70 upgrade was free, but the 85-90 and 70-75 upgrade cost $3000), and they are trying not to get a lot of complaints from those who bought just before the change. But I think it's highly unlikely.
I did some calculations and I believe the 75 packs have the 3rd generation batteries, but supply might be limited and they currently can only do it for the smaller packs. They may also have a stock of the 2nd generation batteries they need to burn off making 90 packs. When the supply of 3rd generation batteries is sufficient and they run out of 2nd gen batteries, they will switch over the larger pack to 100.
If true, it ticks me off a bit because I pick up my 90D on Monday. I've been hoping it will have a 100 Kwh battery, but I doubt it at this point.
For what it's worth, the configuration on my car says "Range Upgrade - Included". I think with the used and inventory cars they are just saying no range upgrade on the 90s to make it clear because the 90s have only one battery size, and there is an option between 70 and 75 on the lower end.�
Jun 3, 2016
GoTslaGo This is the best explanation I have seen regarding that Model S listing by the OP. Makes sense!�
Jun 6, 2016
mshuang I wonder if they just meant to distinguish that it was a 85 that had the 90 upgrade done vs. a new 90 kWh battery.�
Jun 7, 2016
MDMGSO47
Sounds like a case of badge envy.�
Jun 7, 2016
sandpiper I suspect that the "range upgrade" business on the 90s is simply an error of some sort, albeit a curious one. But - I would not be at all surprised if some of the 90s have 100 kwh cells. I could certainly see Tesla putting them out there to validate the durability of a new cell chemistry under normal operating conditions. I'm curious about why they didn't open up about the 70/75 right when the refresh was announced.�
Jun 7, 2016
Bishop so I'm looking to pick up an inventory care this weekend so i called and spoke to the salesman.. he looked it up it use to be a p85 that was upgraded to p90 hince the " range update" however its odd cause the p90 has " no range update" listed and the p85 that was upgraded to a 90 still cost more than the 90 out right with less miles�
Aug 12, 2016
MickC The Netherlands have approved the type 100D and 100X for tesla. Check autoblog.nl�
Aug 12, 2016
MickC So a quick translation:
The Dutch RDW approves type numbers so vehicles can be sold across Europe. Their type lists are public and can be viewed by anyone.
In this list the type 100D and 100X are listed under Tesla.�
Aug 12, 2016
ShadowR55 That was a very old post�
Aug 12, 2016
St Charles Interesting...
My P90DL, manufactured in 2/2016 (vin 128xxx) DID come with the range upgrade. My full charge was 270mi when I took delivery.
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Aug 12, 2016
Bishop i actually looked into this when i was deciding between an s and a X this was a 85 upgraded to a 90�
Aug 13, 2016
Model S M.D. This has been posted in another thread already but perhaps gives more credence to recent 90 kwh batteries potentially being software upgradable to 100 kwh (in addition to the increased power output from recent P90D Model X vs "older" P90D Model S)
Tesla Model S and X with 100 kWh battery pack and �~380 miles of range� approved by European authority�
Aug 16, 2016
Model S M.D. Posted in another thread, but its very interesting that the P100D/100D are showing up on tirerack.com today...Osborne effect to follow�
Aug 16, 2016
dehydratedH2O I've got it on good word that old 90s will not be upgradeable. The 100 requires changes to the car that have not gone into production yet.�
Aug 16, 2016
GoTslaGo Bummer. Hoping to see some stealth 100s out there hiding as 90s.�
Aug 16, 2016
Mr So Chill apparently tirerack is willing to sell you some tires for your P100D already.
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Aug 16, 2016
D�rik Solutions Which MUST mean my refreshed 90D is a 100D?
Thanks Erik�
Aug 16, 2016
ecarfan But right now, only for the S and not the X. Which is weird. Of course when/if Tesla releases a 100 battery it will be available in both models. I think.
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Aug 16, 2016
St Charles I wonder if there will be a retrofit option..�
Aug 16, 2016
Galve2000 This is the worst thread on TMC. can someone please change the title so this click bait can be avoided?�
Aug 16, 2016
dehydratedH2O Nope.�
Aug 16, 2016
St Charles DO you have more you can share on this? At present it seems a bit hard to take at face value.�
Aug 16, 2016
Model S M.D. That's weird. Doesn't make sense with the higher power output of the new XP90D vs "old" SP90D (DragTimes)...maybe somebody did jump the gun on the website or forgot to include the X.�
Aug 16, 2016
dehydratedH2O I don't. I don't expect people to believe me, but I live in the area and have friends who know things. I won't really share more than that because I don't want anyone to get in trouble. If I were you, I'd be skeptical too.�
Aug 16, 2016
Model S M.D. Will "new" 90s be upgradable? You mentioned old ones wouldn't...just wondering!�
Aug 16, 2016
dehydratedH2O I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if 90s became software limited 100s once they start production on 100s. It probably wouldn't make much sense for them to keep the physical 90 batteries going.�
Aug 16, 2016
Model S M.D. Picked up by Teslarati: Tire Rack lists Tesla Model S P100D as vehicle selection option�
Aug 16, 2016
theslimshadyist �
Aug 16, 2016
wdolson I don't care what the badge on the truck says, it's what's inside that counts.�
Aug 17, 2016
Mr So Chill Was I the one to tip them off?�
Aug 17, 2016
sandpiper Yes there will be. You can swap out your 85/90 pack to a 100 - just as you could the 85 to a 90. But it will be expensive... over 20K.�
Aug 17, 2016
St Charles Do you know something or is it speculation? The reason I ask is because there are several 90kW packs currently in production that cannot be attached to a 'classic' Model S. There is speculation that something changed with the electrical system that incorporates a different connection between the pack and the car.
I'm not soo much worried about upgrading from 90kW to 100kW but I would definitely like the ability to purchase a future pack when the additional power/range becomes worthwhile. One thing I was hoping for in the future was that pack prices would go down with the production of the Model 3. I am hoping to see a much less expensive 120kW pack in 3-5 years.�
Aug 17, 2016
wdolson I think we will see a 120 or 125 pack in a couple of years. There are stories out there that the new packaging for the batteries will improve the energy density of the packs 33-40% over the current density.
A lot of people with older cars will want to upgrade then. Even if an older car can't take the current production pack, they might make a pack that can fit in the legacy cars. Similar to the Roadster battery upgrade program.
The Model 3 will be in full production and they will need assurances the GF has extra production capacity to support such a program before Tesla will do it though.�
Aug 17, 2016
tonglaji Anybody checked if the 100/100D models are registered in CARB? I remember the 75/75D were first discovered with their registration.�
Aug 17, 2016
dehydratedH2O The 100 pack is physically larger than the 90 and requires chassis changes to fit. I highly doubt there will be a retrofit option.�
Aug 17, 2016
msnow Wait, so they would have a different chassis depending on battery pack? That will add a lot to their cost of production. It's actually a refresh of the refresh.�
Aug 17, 2016
systemcrashed My speculation, only speculation is that the pack itself will be the same size, the contents of the pack will consist of the newer 21700 cells, since diameter is larger so fewer cells in the pack but at a 33% increase in capacity nets you a 10KW increase for the pack as a whole, 5mm increase in height is easier to compensate for and fit into existing chassis design.�
Aug 17, 2016
Trev Page Can't be. The 2170 cells are not even in production yet at the Gigafactory and the initial production is all slated for Model 3. In time those cells will make it to the Model S, this has been confirmed but I'm of the opinion the 100kWh battery pack energy increase is through cell chemistry improvements alone.�
Aug 17, 2016
systemcrashed Well, that could mean one of a few things. Either you are correct and they have been able to squeeze over 10% more energy into the existing 18650 cells, they are capable of fitting 10% more 18650 cells into existing packs, or the slated 100KW pack composed of 21700 cells is further out than people suspect. My money is on new cells, Panasonic as well as Samsung are already producing these overseas.�
Aug 17, 2016
shokunin My guess is that they are 21700 cells from Japan. Tesla must have been testing and validating these cells for probably (total guess) for over a year. Moving up the timeline for the model 3 may have prompted Panasonic to retool a factory for 21700 ahead of the gigafactory installation.
This would provide Tesla a year to get the factory up and running, production and processes ironed out before the massive ramp in cell production for the model 3.�
Aug 17, 2016
RubberToe Once @wk057 opens one up like a sardine can, all your questions will be answered.
Plan: Off grid solar with a Model S battery pack at the heart
RT�
Aug 17, 2016
wdolson The new 60 isn't in CARB:
DriveClean California
Why would the 100 pack be physically larger? I believe the cells planned for the 100 pack are the same geometry as the 90's cells.
The 2170s will not be made in Japan, they will be introduced at the Gigafactory and they aren't in production yet. When they do go into production, the prediction is the energy density of a pack will go up by 33-40%. It the physical size of the pack changes to make a 100 KWh battery, it will be smaller, not bigger.
Now if you increase the capacity of the 75 KWh pack by 33%, that gets you a 99.75 KWh pack. The small pack will be the 100 KWh pack and the large pack will be around 120 KWh (119.7 KWh). If Tesla wants to make a clear distinction between the Model 3 and S, that would be the way to do it. If the cost of a small pack 100 KWh is the same or a little cheaper than the current 75 KWh and the cost of the large pack 120 KWh is the same or cheaper than a current 90, that will make a clear distinction between even the big pack Model 3, which may have a 70-75 KWh battery pack and range approaching 300 miles if not a little over and the Model S which will start at over 300 miles range for the entry model and will be close to 400 miles for the large pack, there will still be an incentive to get the Model S.
Since the badge for a P100D was found in the firmware, I think Tesla currently has a 3rd generation battery cell that is a little better than the 2nd generation cell (used in the 70 and 90 packs) and it is being used in the current 75 packs, but the 90 has not been upgraded yet due to supply shortages. Once there are enough of the 3rd generation cells available, Tesla will start putting in 100 KWh packs, but until then, we have the 75 and the 90.
When the GF can produce enough cells to fill all needs, they will likely introduce a 100 and 120 pack. Because there has been delays in getting the 3rd generation cells in cars and the GF is a little ahead of schedule, the large pack 100 may never happen and the large pack cars might jump from 90 to 120. I would hope they will introduce a pack upgrade program soon after introduction of the new cells because it would be worth it to upgrade from 90 to 120 for a lot of people, including me. With a 120 pack I could easil make it from here to the Bay Area with only two supercharger stops, one if I really wanted to stretch it to the max and drive slow (it's 700 miles).�
Aug 18, 2016
systemcrashed On a Gigafactory tour, an associate mentioned that they were importing a certain number of cells, I didn't catch the number, percentage or even what type of cell. But food for thought.�
Aug 18, 2016
sandpiper This is what I was wondering. Tesla is not going to introduce the 2170 cells into production without a long period of validation. With absolute certainty, there are a bunch of 2170 Teslas out there using Japanese produced cells. I wondered if those might be the test P100Ds that were exposed.
The timeline isn't absurd. They're looking at production at the GF later this year. Since Panasonic is providing the major 2170 production equipment, they have to have a pilot line producing 2170 cells in Japan right now; the Japanese don't do anything without a ton of testing. It could well be that they've been building enough 2170 inventory to go into the P100s. And as the GF comes on line they could migrate the cells out to the rest of the line.�
Aug 18, 2016
shokunin I have a hard time imagining a 11% increase in capacity just from chemistry changes, that would like a high endurance automotive grade 3800mAh 18650. The pack may be larger in Z-height due to the extra 5mm in height of the 21700's. Not sure if the current pack design can accommodate the increase in height.
JB and Elon has stated over multiple times that the 3 will receive technology that has already iterated into from the S and X. Can't think of a better time to introduce the 21700's in a 100kw pack and ONLY in the 100kw pack where the margins are better. The 75's will stay with 18650's until the gigafactory is up and running producing cells at a price point that is cheaper than the 18650's.
However this does raise the question of why only 100kw? If the switch the 2170 is going to provide 20-30%+ in density, why not release a 110kw pack. The X can sure use those the extra KW's for towing.�
Aug 18, 2016
wdolson I can see an 11% increase in capacity from chemistry improvements alone. Probably the most widespread R&D effort in the world right now is improving batteries. Efforts are going into long term major improvements as well as picking the low hanging fruit of incremental improvements. Some of the low hanging fruit improvements are starting to come into production now. The major changes won't be seen for a few years.
The details of chemistry improvements are so complex with so many variables, nobody fully understands it, but it also means the size of improvements can range from small to moderate in size.�
Aug 18, 2016
ithinkmac Thought that I read that the new Leaf, eGolf and i3 have increased in battery capacity with the same physical dimensions, but just newer generation with better chemistry. Everything else being the same, just better capacity battery. 30% increase or something like that.
-ThinkMac-�
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