Thứ Tư, 1 tháng 2, 2017

Car & Driver hates Trip Planner part 1

  • Jul 9, 2015
    Lump
  • Jul 9, 2015
    qwertzy
  • Jul 9, 2015
    AmpedRealtor
    Glad the media is finally covering the sucky navigation in the Model S.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    BoerumHill
    Good write up, seemed pretty even handed. He struggled with his first road trip, as do most. It's a quick learning curve & you get better. Spot on about the on board nav; its lousy and sometimes makes horrible recommendations. That could have been lifted word for word from several threads here.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    idoco
    OT...what's with the NHTSA complaint (suspension falling off) in the comment section?
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    LetsGoFast
    Perhaps this article will help push Tesla to fix the fairly horrific nav bugs. That feature simply wasn't ready for release. Driving on I-95, it always wants to stop in Bethesda, which is almost always a bad idea.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    JohnQ
    Honestly, I can't see as there's much to like about the trip planner algorithm. Now, the addition of the "trip" screen to the energy app on the big screen? That's actually useful.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    Grendal
    That would be Jim5437532. He probably has a new handle since he is known under his other handles. He is a Tesla SuperTroll. He has actually filed a number of false NHTSA reports based on secondhand information he picks up here on TMC. I believe he is crazy or someone with a very well done agenda.

    I have a thread on him in the Off Topic section:

    Super Troll Jim5437532 and his campaign against Tesla

    Actually, I just read the article (not bad) and saw the commenter is Keef Wiveneff. He is also a common troll for Tesla. His agenda is that all things "green" are scams and therefore Tesla is a scam. It's within the realms of possibility that they are the same person but I doubt it having commented with both of them. Keef is equally nuts but he has a clear agenda, whereas Jim has never given any justification whatsoever for his destructive campaign.

    What I can say is that the NHTSA claim that Keef is referencing was created by Jim5437532. It has his fingerprints all over it. The complaint is being generated by a secondary party speculating on something they believe to be a safety defect. No reality is involved in the complaint.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    Todd Burch
    That article is an absolute embarrassment. Although the guy writing the article seems to be a bit of a moron (or he was intentionally ignoring his own common sense to make a point in the article), he's absolutely right in that the Tesla's nav is crap right now.

    I hope this lights a fire under Tesla to fix it. This beta nav crap has done absolutely NOTHING to help Tesla or the EV cause.

    In Elon's over-inflated quest to "eliminate range anxiety", all he's done is made it worse.

    C'mon Elon, I know you and your team can do MUCH better than this.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    Lump
  • Jul 9, 2015
    gg_got_a_tesla
    Yeah, having done a Bay Area - San Diego road trip over the long weekend and having used Trip Planner, I found it to be just as much of a comical, sorry mess. It wanted me to dog leg through the LA SCs several times when I had a full battery to get from SJC to Tejon. It tried to make me go back to the SC that I just left on multiple occasions.

    The algorithms driving the Trip Planner are not properly taking into account the SoC, direction of travel and (elevation- and weather-adjusted) distance to the next SC in the direction of travel.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    ecarfan
    Well that was a bizarre read. It lost me at this sentence: "the average driving range per battery charge staffers had seen in the long-term Model S was just over 130 miles". That can't be right. Does Car&Driver not know how to charge the car and drive it?
    Some of the comments posted on that article page were equally delusional. And the one about the NHSTA complaint of the "rear suspension sheared off" sounds like made up nonsense.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    smilepak
    I think the forums and some Tesla die hard is just a bit too harsh on Tesla in general regarding this Trip Planner. Keep in mind that this is a software based car that gets better with release. Plus the planner is their first release version or so. I don't expect it to be excellent. It is usable and for those who live in the area it tries to map around, I can use my local knowledge of the area to compensate where it lacks. But at least it gives me something to think about and decides through.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    SmartElectric
    Well, my experience is different. We road tripped from Toronto to New York (see thread in Canada forum) and back in our first week with our Tesla (last week by the way).

    The trip was rapid and comfortable. Never waited for the car to charge, as I planned the trip in advance, just like normal people do for road trips of >500 miles. I did experience one case of the navigation pointing me back to my previous supercharge, but that was due to my personal choice on speed for a particular part of the journey, and I made it with 7% charge remaining, which was 30km of range to spare. That is a lot of spare range, let me tell you, my Smart ED has 120km on a good day, so I'm perfectly comfortable charging just enough to get where I'm going, and no more.

    To each their own, but yes, Tesla should work a bit more on the navigation, even though it wouldn't benefit me, others may get value out of it.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    Grendal
    Reading the article to the end is what has it make any sense. It is really an article about unreasonable range anxiety and how using Tesla's program doesn't really help. I appreciate that the author admits that he had a lot of unfounded fear and how simple reasoning can remove them. The reality is that almost every real owner loses range anxiety very quickly. The guy made a number of mistakes including his fear that range charging would damage the battery, so he wouldn't do it. Going on a long distance trip is exactly the correct time to do 100% charges. These type of articles really show that we have a long way to go. The general public, and even car guys, just have no clue as this article illustrates.

    As for the sheared off rear suspension, it is made up nonsense. I'm sure the car was in a serious accident where such a thing could occur. These lunatics would take a car driven off a cliff and turn it into a "serious safety issue" just to further their agenda. Whatever that agenda might be. The crazy guy should get into trouble for filing false reports.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    deonb
    Well, the number 1 thing that needs to happen for software to get better with each release, is that it actually has to get better with each release...

    Tesla took a problem that really didn't exist in the first place, and made it worse.


    If all they did was nothing, it would have had no impact on sales or pre-orders, and this negative review wouldn't have existed.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    beeeerock
    I went on a road trip yesterday into the Supercharger Desert. Essentially north of my home where there are no Superchargers. Because I was going to be cutting things close, I used the nav app to map my route and ensure I could do it as planned. When I plugged in the destination address, it routed me due south instead of north, to the next Supercharger. And apparently not to my destination. Once I went into the options and removed charging stops, the route went north.

    A complete logic fail IMHO... routing south to the next Supercharger, than back to my departure point for another Supercharge and not to my desired destination seems more than a little silly.

    The energy consumption graph that is charted after a destination is set is extremely useful (and quite accurate), but the rest of the trip planning is pretty feeble.

    I wish evtripplanner.com would display properly on the web browser...
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    MikeC
    This guy is the anti-Broder - erring to a ridiculous extent on the side of excessive charging.

    I think most of us that have driven the car home from the factory did not turn it into an ordeal like this.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    dsm363
    I really wish these guys would do these drives with an owner sitting in the back not saying anything for the first leg of the trip and then watch them drive on the return trip. Would make a much more balanced and informative article.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    trils0n
    The nav really is bad now. I used to use it, and had no problem with it. Now it is pretty much useless. Even for short trips with no supercharger routing I get nonsense suggestions, rerouting with no notice for no reason, and other generally weird suggestions, like getting off the freeway only to get back on at at same ramp.

    It is going to turn off a lot of new buyers to how good the Model S is for road trips, and introduce a lots of unnecessary fear and range anxiety to new owners not familiar with the car or EVs. Seems like this is exactly what happened to Car and Driver. Without my experience driving the Model S for the last 2+ years, and many thousands of miles of roadtrips, I think the nav would have really thrown me for a loop if I was still getting familiar with the car and how EVs and Superchargers worked. That said, the C&D person made some pretty weird decisions on his own.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    Nubo
    Meh, the hyperbole. 14 hours is a death march but 11 hours is a "breezy pleasure cruise". And of course how could anyone be expected to bear the indignity of (gasp) driving so slowly as to actually be observing the speed limit, where of course sparrows will be passing you disdainfully as they flit over the cornfields at over 70 mph?

    It's all too precious. All too Broderized.
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  • Jul 9, 2015
    mwulff
    I give them credit for realizing that a bit of mental math was needed on the return trip. That said Car & Driver probably behaved more like common buyers than EV enthusiasts do. Tesla needs to improve the satnav to make it better for the unwary.

    That being said a long-term owner could have made that trip with no stress and no problems at all.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    mgboyes
    In fact they took a problem that didn't exist in the first place, made it worse, and then built a whole PR campaign saying they'd fixed it.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Cobos
    If you read the article all the way through he does at the end say on his return journey he ignored the anti-range-anxiety feature and just planned trips from supercharger to supercharger. That feature is so far from release it's scary, as it stands now it creates range anxiety. Turn that feature off, use the trip tab in the energy section and plot from supercharger to supercharger and the Model S works fine for road trips. Though as a S60 owner it does seem that the buildout in the US for SC is not reaching the density you've got in parts of western Europe. Why on earth Tesla announced this software while it's still this rough is beyond me.
    Now if they would have maps that have highways older than 1 year included in the nav I would be a pretty happy camper.

    Cobos
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    MichFin
    We shouldn't just dismiss this article as poor decisions by the driver because that's how most people are. Getting used to doing road trips with a Tesla takes a few tries to get comfortable but the reality is you only get one chance to make a first impression.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    mknox
    Well, it could be if all they do with the car is drive it on short trips and repeatedly do "Insane Mode" launches with it. I notice a HUGE difference in my efficiency/range on weekends where I do multiple short trips and errands vs. my weekday 90 mile round-trip freeway commute. Add colder weather (not sure if they had the car during the winter months) and I could see them getting numbers like that. It takes some time to get used to how the car behaves under different climate and driving scenarios. At the end of the day, my significantly reduced weekend range is not really an issue because even 130 miles is WAY more than I'd need in a day anyway.

    I've done Toronto to Chicago trips in my car and find it quite effortless. My wife, however, complains about having to stop and eat when the car is hungry, and may not like the timing or the restaurants near the Superchargers. I can see that. More Superchargers will allow for more options and not make trip planning as rigid as it has to be today.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    JohnQ
    The driver had a point of view for this article and purposefully set out to reinforce that point of view. Namely, the Model S is not well suited for a road trip. A minimal amount of research by any driver would show two things: 1) How far one can drive on the chosen route on a charge and 2) what the quickest charging strategy is. There's this thing called the internet that everyone has access to that has an incredible knowledge base ... I expect most (though not all) reasonable people who purchase an EV would check out other people's experiences. It makes for entertaining reading and is simply preaching to the viewpoint his audience already has. No different than any other media platform.

    Regarding the Trip portion of the Nav? Yes, it's horrible. But even when he turns it off for the return trip, he insists on charging to full. If he knows that the charge rate gets slower as the battery gets full, why wouldn't he simply charge enough to get to his next charging stop? I figured that out pretty damn fast.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Cobos
    So did the author. He says so right there in the article at the end. For his return trip he mentions it takes lot longer from 80-100% than from 60-80 and he could have saved time by just charging to 80%. So in essence it took him one return road trip to understand how the car works. That's fine for us that owns the car and as part of that process propably does quite a bit of research. With the Model 3 the idea is to cater to those that don't want to learn new stuff and their significant others/friends/family. Then the Range Assurance app NEEDS to actually help not create range anxiety in me, whom after all is well educated on the car and has already done several long trips.

    So yes the author wanted to make a story, but a lot of what he said is true at least to a certain extent.

    Cobos
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    AB4EJ
    We need to write a manual "How to get the most out of your Tesla" to include all the tips - and make sure every new driver and vehicle reviewer gets a copy or link to it. A lot of the frustrations the C&D guys had with the car seem to be a lack of familiarity (with some of that tied in to how buggy the nav system still is). The system still has a number of imperfections - that's why I agree with those commenters who say that current owners still fall into the camp of "early adopters," who are willing and even eager to solve the puzzles of how to work with a new technology. I, along with my fellow nerds & geeks (computer science, IT people, engineers, etc.) willingly do this - but most of the public won't. It seems like Tesla owners are still beta testers to a certain extent. Tesla will need to figure all this out before the Model 3 & efforts to go mainstream (seems like they should be able to)...
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    MichFin
    Owning a Tesla has improved dramatically since they first came out and taking road trips in them is now possible for the early adopters and still getting better. But in no way is this ready for the masses and if the Model 3 has any chance of success past the first 100k units (people that already want a Tesla but can't afford it) things have to get a lot better by the end of 2018.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    PokerBroker
    You guys really think this has had an impact on orders? I think you are overstating a bit.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    gavine
    I wonder how long it took them to choose Virginia as their destination. It seems they were trying to find a destination that would be most difficult under the current SuperCharger layout and one that would require a less direct route. They could have easily chosen a different destination and made for a positive experience, but it seems to me that wasn't their agenda.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    BoldSharpe
    "(Note: A �trip mode� exists that unlocks the Tesla�s full range potential, and it was used before setting off from Ann Arbor, but using it often can degrade the battery."

    Does he mean Range Mode and is this true? I typically only use it on longer highway trips but this is the first time I've seen this.

    Going a bit off topic, the Tesla Navigation is very bad and the SuperCharger routing feature, as others have mentioned, is absolutely horrendous. On Sunday, it wanted to take me 70 miles out of the way to hit an additional SuperCharger I didn't need.

    Granted, this guy could have improved his journey significantly with a little more planning but if Tesla truly wants to become mainstream and avoid these types of reviews, the SuperCharger build out needs to continue at its current pace over the next several years and the navigation needs to be outsourced to Google.

    I'm sure it has been discussed before but does anyone know why Tesla does their own navigation?
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    N4HHE
    Let this be a lesson against blind trust in "authority figures" such as navigation systems, government, doctors, teachers, or scientists.

    - - - Updated - - -

    About a month ago mine demanded I take a 280 mile route via Supercharger 155 miles away to reach my destination which was only 116 miles direct.

    - - - Updated - - -

    VIR is a regular playground for Car & Driver. Many others were converging for an event, this article was the telling of only one journey there.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    MichFin
    Yes I do. I for one was on the fence contemplating my Model S purchase.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    apacheguy
    Trip Planner was released in BETA meaning, by default, that it's not ready for prime time. I stated from the outset that I would treat its predictions with skepticism. It definitely requires an overhaul in 7.0.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    TomServo
    I keep reading that Tesla is more of a Technology company than an Automotive company. Seems they need to hire a few more engineers and have them actually go out on long extended test drives navigate SOLEY by the GPS Nav system they designed.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    andrewket
    Perhaps the default setting for trip planner should be OFF. When you turn it on a pop-up comes up reminding the driver it's beta.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    RAM_Eh
    I remember my first trip...600 Miles...I cut it close on various legs of the trip.

    Boils down to live and learn. He will not make the same mistakes the next trip.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    LetsGoFast
    Or perhaps something so buggy shouldn't even have been released. I'm pretty much a full on Telsa apologist, but I can't defend the nav software. The U-turn thing is ridiculously cautious and the suggested time when you can stop charging cuts it close in the opposite direction. Even something as simple as providing you a notification via the app that you have sufficient charge hasn't been released, despite the software being months old now. It also makes really stupid decisions as to whether to stop at Bethesda or Woodbridge every time I go through DC. On a recent trip to Baltimore, it was insisting I route through Bethesda but once I deleted the charging stop, it happily reported that I would make it with 22% battery remaining.

    Owners know to do their own planning with evtripplanner or their own research, but a writer for Car & Driver is very unlikely to know that or to understand the intricacies that are second nature to all of us. The tone might be bombastic, but he is essentially right in his criticisms. Obviously, it would be unusual for an actual car owner to misunderstand the charge taper curve, but the premise of the nav is that you don't have to know anything -- the car just tells you where to stop and charge. If you are relying on that right now, you are going to be unhappy.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Max*
    The only feature of the trip planner that I use is to estimate charging time at the supercharger to hit my next destination.

    And even then, I don't set it to navigate from Point A to Point B, I set it to the 2nd supercharge on the route, so that it navigates me through the 1rst supercharger and gives me an estimate as to how long it thinks I should charge at the first supercharger...
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    Just wondering...is it common in the east/midwest to refer to Virginia as VIR? I found it annoying throughout the article but maybe that's how they commonly refer to it in those regions? Didn't three letter abbreviations go away like 50+ years ago when ZIP codes and two letter state abbreviations were implemented? The author looks to be in his 20s vs. his 70s so I wondered about the usage of the abbreviation.

    EDIT: Ah, is he referring to Virginia International Raceway? I get it now...but don't know if most people would know what the abbreviation stands for. I don't think he ever spelled out what VIR stands for...but maybe all C&D readers would know that already.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Khatsalano
    It's true. The 6.2 Nav is worse than a Garmin handheld from the early 2000s. :( Also, tech companies including Google, Apple, Tesla, and others, don't get a free pass by labeling something "beta" as a shield to say the something isn't very good yet. This is especially true when it has an impact on public or personal safety.

    - K
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    deonb
    That would be sad.

    I personally think the Model S is a great road trip car. There isn't any case of a road trip at any distance that I would still take an ICE. It's much relaxing in the Model S due to the pacing.

    However, what it isn't is an unplanned road trip car - and the article is right on that one. This is essentially what Tesla tried to solve, and failed so miserably at. That you can get in your car, not knowing where you're going to charge next, and just take off.

    But the locations of the Supercharger is just a small piece of the puzzle. They are still going to be a 25 to 45 minute stop, so you're going to want to find something to do. And you want to know what's coming up next as well. I certainly don't want to eat at Taco Bell at one location just because I'm there, just to find out that the next Supercharger is located next to a Morton's. I also want to know when that coffee shop next to the Supercharger is closing. I also want to read up on what other people said about things to do at that location.

    When you're stopping for gas, and the gas station convenience store is closed - not a big deal, you wait till you're done, and drive 2 miles down the road. When the same happens with the Supercharger though it's a bummer, because then you're not making best use of your stop time.

    So trips require upfront planning, except for trips you do regularly. I don't know if ever it won't, or even should - the problem space for that is just too big.

    Unfortunately, Tesla is going about solving the wrong problem here. If they want to create tools, create tools that help me plan the trip before I leave... or not even that: Just let me upload my planned trip to the car. That way I can use any software and methodology I want, and look at all the criteria I want.

    Getting to my destination is not my only criteria for having a successful trip.


    However, once you accept that Tesla is solving the wrong problem, and you ignore their solution and instead plan your trips upfront, the Model S then becomes again what it always used to be: The best road trip vehicle on the road.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    doctorwho
    Surely it just means making or buying some food and taking it with you on an 'unplanned' trip? Its always better to not be hostage to what is available near your stopping point, I learnt that with roadside petrol stops - usually very poor quality food and even worse coffee.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    tezzla
    This sure looks like a TOP GEAR hit piece to me. A funny story with fabricated problems and a few facts thrown in. Although I know the Nav system has it's problems, most (make that some) people have common sense and would recognize problems before blindly following strict directions (ie: turning left into a lake because it said to).
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    DJung
    The Trip Mode he's talking about means that he's charging the battery to 100%. When you select the charge limit in the settings, there are 2 labels: "Trip" and "Daily". Range mode is a different feature, it reduces the fan speed for climate control by limiting the fan speed to 7, and for dual motor vehicles it has a torque sleep function that can put one of the two motors to "sleep" which increases the efficiency of Model S about 10%. Charging your battery to 100% with "trip mode" can degrade your battery, whereas range mode will not.

    Also, technically Garmin does Tesla's navigation. But the whole trip planner feature is done by Tesla. The selection of the charging stops and the calculations are done by Tesla, and the actual route guidance is done by Garmin. I've never gone on a long trip yet, so I've never used this Trip Planner feature. But I'm definitely not hearing good things...
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    mknox
    Sure, but to be fair, with an ICE, gassing up on a road trip is relatively trivial, and you can separate it from your meal stops. You "could" do this with a Model S, but it would add substantially to your trip elapsed time by taking charging stop(s) separate from your meal stop(s).
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    deonb
    Even then - you want to know where there are picnic tables & bathrooms close by the Superchargers so that you can plan ahead.

    I had an exact problem with that over the weekend - Chademo charger that was stated as being next to a picnic table, yet when we got there, no bathrooms and no dogs allowed around the area. Now the charger earned itself a note... so the next person can make a more informed decision, and if that is important to them, they can stop at one of the other chargers in the area instead. But all of this type of feedback only helps if you pre-plan.

    I think we're still decades away from a computer being able to figure out my passengers and all of their whims, likings and bladder sizes, and being able to make good stop decisions based on that.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    BoldSharpe
    Duh - thanks! I certainly wouldn't call that a 'mode' but his statement is accurate then.


    I can't remember the exact verbiage when a destination is plugged in the nav, but it says something to the effect of 'Navigation provided by Tesla.' I don't doubt the turn by turn directions are actually provided by Garmin but it still begs the question why we can't have basic route options (highways, tolls, etc.) a $99 Garmin from Walmart has... Or why Tesla just doesn't use Google for both the maps and the Nav directions.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    igotzzoom
  • Jul 10, 2015
    ChadS
    I think deonb wins the thread with this. That's exactly my take - my last 11,000 mile trip was BETTER than any gas trip I've ever taken. But, yeah, I did have to do some planning (though it wasn't a lot, really), whereas I could have taken a gas car on that trip without planning. (Not that I would have, but I could have).

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mostly agree, but would modify this slightly. I don't consider 100% to be bad* for your battery; in fact it is good to balance it every now and then. The problem is if you charge to 100% and then just leave it there. In the case of the trip in this article, he was driving away after charging so I don't see the harm to him charging to 100% - aside from it taking longer when not necessary, of course.

    *Some will argue it's bad for the battery. Yeah, sure, but so it using it, or even just parking it and not using it. Batteries wear out no matter what you do. What I'm trying to say is that charging to 100% and then leaving the car like that wears the battery out significantly faster. Charging to 100% and then driving off doesn't have a significant effect. Of course it has some effect. And of course nobody has exact numbers. But no manufacturer test (though many were of different chemistries) or user survey (like the Plug In America battery surveys that tomsax does) have shown any measurable effect as long as you don't leave the car sitting around fully charged.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    mike-415
    The truth is that the Tesla is OK (albeit with 25 minutes of stopping every 2-3 hours) on a long road trip if you use EVTripPlanner instead of the crap on-board navi, but it's much better for people like me who generally drive less than 225 miles a day. I've never had to charge anywhere but my garage, and I have never suffered range anxiety. Once, the car went to Sacramento and back, and we calculated that if we drove like maniacs, we'd have to use the supercharger on the way home, but in the end we made it there and back fine on a range charge with 30 stated miles of range to spare. It's not as foolproof as an ICE car where you just roll into a gas station, drooling, whenever you are low on gas, but it also isn't nearly as dramatic as Alex makes it out to be if you use your head (and EVTripPlanner.com) a little.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    bollar
    Car & Driver hates Trip Planner

    This is why... Google maps don't work without GSM reception.

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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Oil4AsphaultOnly
    I think it was pretty well handled. The issue was with what the nav was telling the reporter. On the return trip, he learned to ignore the nav and trust the state of the car's charge more.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Drucifer
    The author has a great future in politics.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    BoldSharpe
    I'd take full featured Google navigation that works only when I have GSM reception (which is likely over 99% of the time) over the current offering that works poorly 100% of the time. :wink:
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    LetsGoFast
    Yeah, most anyone who reads the mag is familiar with it. They do tests and events there very often, including their annual "Lightning Lap" shootout. Road and Track tests there too. Its kinda like calling N�rburgring "the ring." Car guys will know it right away. My Porsche club used to book track days there every year. Soooo much fun.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Cottonwood
    I turned the new "Nav through Superchargers" mode off after a few tries. The functionality of this software is more like an "Alpha-Surprise" than Beta.

    Tesla really should have this mode off by default (let the adventurous turn it on, and give it a try) until it works a lot better...
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    RDoc
    Personally, I'd much rather EVTripPlanner that worked in the car (don't get me started on the car's alleged browser).
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    TomServo
    I'm sure Tesla has a plan but just think of what this could look like with 500,000 M3 owners roaming all over America usually without ANY thought given on planning a trip like an airline pilot.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    wart
  • Jul 10, 2015
    igotzzoom
    Yeah. The article itself wasn't so damning, but the headline makes it sound like a total catastrophe.
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    gnelson
    My first road trip was 6000 mi, and I did not struggle. I used to be a road warrior. If I only had an ICE, I would fly. Now hat I have a Model S, I am thrilled to take road trips.

    As I was going over the mountains between Barstow and Las Vegas, I was laughing at all the overheated ICE cars on the side of the road.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Is it worth 50 bucks for gasoline to be able to separate your fuel stops with meal stops?
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Todd Burch
    Now THERE's common sense. Clearly came from a District 225 high school :).
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  • Jul 10, 2015
    Drucifer
  • Jul 11, 2015
    wart
    The headline is clearly a reference to the children's book. The article itself, not so much. I've found myself thinking on several occasions that there's a battle going on within the staff of Car and Driver over Tesla in particular and electric cars in general. Sometimes they are very enthusiastic about the Model S, sometimes they make fun of it, and sometimes they do both.

    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that a car magazine's use case for a car is different than most private citizens' use case. Car magazine writers drive cars all day every day, and they expect a car to be driveable all day every day, with only the briefest possible stops for fuel and junk food. Electric cars don't work that way, which is fine for normal people, but it's not fine for car magazines.

    By the way I'll be interested to see if they put the P85D on the track at Virginia International Raceway during this year's Lightning Lap festivities.
    �
  • Jul 11, 2015
    John Donovan
    I haven't read all of this topic so I'm sure it's been said, but I just posted on the Tesla forum my own recent experience down I5 with the nav "backtracking" me to my previous SC and apparently this is a well known bug. One is supposed to click the "Remove Superchargers" button to remove the already visited SCs from the nav. I hadn't been pressing that button because I assumed it would remove *all* the super chargers from the list. One can also just reenter the destination after each SC visit and it will be fine.
    �
  • Jul 11, 2015
    Mayhemm
    Here we....go.

    I�m really having trouble understanding Tesla�s software QA process. Features like Valet Mode are delayed and delayed and delayed, presumably to allow time for adequate testing. Yet, we are also presented with the hot mess that is the post-6.2 navigation system. Let it henceforth be known that �Beta� in Tesla-speak translates to �Yeah, we didn�t even road test this thing�. What happened here? Did Tesla bow to owner pressure to release features faster? WTF?

    Let me preface this by saying I am not the typical use-case for this system; I am very much an outlier. I live in central Canada. There are NO Superchargers here. There are NO destination chargers here. Communities are very far apart (>100 miles).

    Still, I have to say that �Range Assurance Mode� or as I call it �Rage Assurance Mode� is an insult to Tesla�s user base and a gut punch to the company�s credibility. �Car gets better over time�, my left *$#&.

    First, the trip planner. A graph that predicts your SOC when arriving at your destination and compares your actual energy use to what the system estimates you would need. This seems like it would be a useful feature. Unfortunately, as deployed it is dangerously optimistic and, somehow, also pessimistic. I will program a route and find it expects me to have sufficient SOC at my destination (As I mentioned before, communities are far apart here, so this will likely be less than 20%). What I DIDN�T expect was the rate at which said estimate fell. No matter the conditions, no matter my speed nor the ambient temperature nor the weather conditions, the predicted SOC would fall around 1% every few miles. The exact opposite of my stress level, in fact. One time I was driving the speed limit, on flat ground, on a calm 72 degree day, and the predicted SOC dropped by SEVEN percentage points in as many miles! My efficiency was going up, yet my SOC at arrival was falling! How exactly is this supposed to help with range anxiety again?! Also, I frequently arrive at my destination with adequate SOC, despite the system saying I would be at up to -5% SOC!

    Anytime I take a roadtrip, I am traveling a long distance (>300 miles) with exactly one EVSE at my starting point and one at my destination. There are no others within range and, since these are not Tesla EVSEs, they are not included in the Nav computer. So, in addition to the terrifying drop in predicted SOC, I have to deal with constant messages of �You are leaving the range of any charging station. Please turn back now to avoid running out of charge� and I have to, as Elon Musk puts it, �willingly choose to run out of charge�.

    You think it�s annoying to have the Nav tell you to return to a Supercharger you just left or stop at one that�s 100 miles out of your way? The system frequently tries to route me through the Supercharger in Billings, MT! An impossible detour of over 2000 miles!!!

    Needless to say, I turned this dangerous POS off.
    �
  • Jul 11, 2015
    supratachophobia
    Navigation = mostly good / a little late on updating map for upcoming turns / search results sometimes based on IP address of SIM card and not GPS/cell tower positioning
    Energy Estimation for Trip = Excellent
    Trip Planning = horrendous / 0min stops, laggy, return to previous charger directions at 50+ miles into that leg of the journey, 5min stops (just spend a bit longer at the charger you are at, getting off the freeway the next time will take more time than that)
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    beeeerock
    I find this very odd! In my experience, the graph you're referring to is the most (perhaps 'only') reliable part of the system. It does nutty things if I drive the route *I* want to drive (rather than what it has decided is best!), because the distances, elevation changes are entirely different. But once it figures out what I'm doing (not always quickly...) the predicted SOC is incredibly accurate for me... IF I drive as per my defined speed (settings, adjustment from posted limit) smoothly (cruise!).

    I have noticed, perhaps since the last firmware update, that the bumps in the graph don't always show up where they should. Or should I say, the elevation data seems to be a little less accurate than before and is often a little offset from actual. However, the predicted charge level is generally good to within a percentage point of actual. And it adjusts up and down dynamically, depending on how I'm driving... if I hit a long stretch of construction, with reduced speed, the SOC prediction will jump a point or so. If I decide I'm running late and speed up, it drops.

    I wonder what it is about your particular car and environment that have made it so unreliable for you, because of all the GPS functionality, this has been the part that sucks the least for me!
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    BoerumHill
    Seems like the thread title should be "Car & Driver also hates the Trip Planner."

    I can't believe people try to defend the range anxiety increaser, or read that article and think it's a hit piece.
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    beeeerock
    A relatively minor bug in the system that really annoys me...

    When you start typing in a destination, a drop-down list of possible matches appear. If I select one, it does the calculations for that destination, but the entry box shows only the letters I typed, not the full text of the destination I selected from the drop-down list. That seems like an obvious fail with a trivial fix!
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    Drucifer
    I am still convinced that this was developed by the same team that did Apple Maps.
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    RDoc
    My understanding is that it was a mole from GM.

    More seriously, I do think that Tesla needs to completely rethink their approach to software, especially their quality standards. IMHO, they should be aiming at excellence, not just token placeholders. Good software is not easy, but it's not that hard to do, however it does require a real management commitment and designers with real vision. Unfortunately, Tesla clearly doesn't have anything like that in their software operation, e.g. the media player, navigation system, trip planner, browser, the whole UI paradigm, the remote control app, and on and on.
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    mwulff
    Compared to apple software there are some quality issues. But barring navigation planning the system has been mostly stable and working well for me since we got the car.

    It it is light years ahead of anything offered by Bmw or Audi at this point. They need to step up to the challenge of delivering even better quality in the future.
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    Just a Reader
    If you had bothered to spend about three minutes on reading that blog you would have seen that it was the trip from Car & Driver's HQ to their Lightning Lap track test at the Virginia International Raceway - a trip that was also taken by many other cars in their fleet. Readers don't want car magazines to be all nice about the cars they are testing. The Model S is getting the same treatment as any other car. Car & Driver has no reason to go out of their way to make things easy for the Tesla.
    �
  • Jul 12, 2015
    Mayhemm
    As I mentioned, it's likely my experience is very rare (if not unique) in the Model S community. Perhaps Tesla does not have elevation data for the area in which I'm driving, resulting in an abnormally high amount of variance in the range prediction? Regardless, the car does nothing to indicate such a deficiency so, as implemented, all it does it make me more stressed than I had been before.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2015
    perkiset
    Yeah man - as a guy expecting his delivered in the next day or so, and taking his first road trip (only 350 miles one way) this weekend, I'd LOVE that. A best practices and "What I've found out..." kind of thing. Awesome, if you know of one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Whoops - sorry guys, I thought I was replying to a post back on page 2. I was responding to the notion of a book/pamphlet/PDF on how best to stop being a n00b as quickly as possible, rather than the way the C&D article author did it.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2015
    Gizmotoy
    I'd venture to say that most people find the point-to-point navigation to be adequate: not perfect, but as good as or better than what's in other vehicles. It's primarily the road trip routing through Superchargers that's currently quite bad. For now, the best thing you can do is remove charging from your route and do it manually by entering the next Supercharger as your destination. You lose the view of the overall trip, but at least you won't be driving 60 miles out of the way to hit a Supercharger you didn't need to hit.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2015
    goldenbyte
    As a new owner who just completed a 2500 mile road trip, I can say that I definitely don't have "range anxiety" but I do have "destination anxiety". Most of the time I arrived at the supercharger with precisely 2% - 3% battery, which was intentional. However if I wasn't paying close attention to the map, I would have thrice found myself back at the same supercharger or at another one in a destination far from the established route. This was my constant destination anxiety since I received no notifications of these changes in the route.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2015
    jdo
    +1

    I was never trying to cut it as close as you, but a couple of times after charging up at an SC, about 10-15 miles out the nav decided I needed to go back and charge again. The first time it happened I actually made a wrong turn at an interchange before I realized what was going on. After then, it was only an annoyance.
    �
  • Jul 13, 2015
    JST
    Just to add my 2c--I think it's absolutely fair to rake Tesla over the coals for the trip planner function. It's bizarre how terrible it is. And while it can sometimes be a bit of a joke to call the people that write for car magazines "automotive journalists," I want them to tell me about the bad as well as the good. That's especially imperative with a car as new and unique as the Tesla.
    �
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